spacer brand

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
I had forgotten that the instructions for boiling in EU/German said not to let it touch the pan bottom and I know it did as the water was just covering it. So I think that was the problem, but I'm going to call Pari when I get caught up and ask if they can give me specific instructions on boiling since I didn't get any in the package and since I ruined 2... I will let you know but I think that is likely it.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Just got off with Pari. They confirmed that "yes, you can boil. It will not damage the unit." "But, it is not a proven method of disinfection" (the later is an FDA thing as it wasn't tested.) I explained that it was damaged and she could not give me any directions on boiling because "it is not a proven method of disinfection." I asked if the Vortex is the made of the same material as those sold in Germany and England and she is following up. The reason I asked that, is because those two countries do have instructions on how to boil to disinfect, (and as Gammaw reminded me...dah...the unit shouldn't touch the pan bottom). She can't tell me to use those instructions because "it is not a proven method of disinfection." I'll let you know when I find out whether the material is the same as used in the other countries.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
I've ordered two of them.....I will experiment and report back. Even if you let them touch the bottom of the pot, Aboveall, that seems a bit touchy to me. It's gonna happen. So along with shay's experience, it seems steam disinfection is easiest if you don't want to find yourself without one because you walked out of the room a minute and it boiled down in the extra 2 minutes......But I will see what happens......
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
I've ordered two of them.....I will experiment and report back. Even if you let them touch the bottom of the pot, Aboveall, that seems a bit touchy to me. It's gonna happen. So along with shay's experience, it seems steam disinfection is easiest if you don't want to find yourself without one because you walked out of the room a minute and it boiled down in the extra 2 minutes......But I will see what happens......

ditto. Experimenting here. My plan is to just hold it in the water for 5 with tongs and use the time for some conversation with the big Guy. If that works, overall it will still be easier and quick than what we did. ....and I don't have a baby steamer and prefer boiling....oh, what about an old Dutch pan thingy ...can't remember what it's called but had a flash of my mom calling it something where its two pans and I think you do it not to burn the stuff on the top....please do report back!
 

jthomp

New member
Are you referring to a double boiler? You bring the water in the bottom pan to a boil, and the heat from the bottom pan warms whatever is in the top pan (i.e. melting chocolate).
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Yes that would be a double boiler. ITs great for melting chocolate. But the top pan is still a metal pan and if the thing sinks, it will touch the bottom of the top pan as well. However, the idea is that the top pan doesn't get as hot. Still sounds silly. I will experiment!
 
S

stephen

Guest
The theory of a double boiler is that the top "chamber" is heated only by the steam generated by the water boiling in the bottom "chamber", and not directly by the primary heat source. Therefor, unless the the bottom is under pressure, the maximum temperature the steam can reach is 212 degrees F. That's also the maximum temperature any part of the top chamber, or its contents, can reach. Even if the spacer rests on the bottom, if it can withstand a temperature of 212 F there should be no problem.

Having said that, I'm not sure how long it would take water in the top to actually come to a boil; or even if it ever will.

As an aside, I'm interested what is being done to sterilize toothbrushes? They should get as "contaminated" as spacers.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Thanks Stephen. Your explanation of a double boiler helped me a lot! The fact is we need to be able to boil this dang appliance without worrying about it. If we have to use something other than just a pot with water, I'm afraid it's becomes ridiculous and not nearly as useful. Bless AboveAll for her willingness to hold it in the pot for 5 minutes, but I find that a bit much! Steam disinfection may be the way to go, but I find it hard to understand why the instructions in Japan, Germany, and the UK indicate you can boil it if it's going to fall apart. So I guess we'll see. I believe that if you can get it in steam at 212 degrees for a certain amount of time that it will actually be sterilized, not just disinfected. But I don't know that there is a steam sterilizer out there that can do it - except for hospital grade equipment.

I do understand skepticism about the need to disinfect spacers, or "valved holding chambers" - after all we don't sterilize our spoons, cups and glasses, or our toothbrushes as you point out. And in fact they all go in the mouth. I will mention that I believe some of our members do in fact follow procedures to clean toothbrushes, by the way, including making sure they dry between uses as well as cleaning them in the dishwasher, etc. And that is probably more important to do when you're combating a newly acquired infection especially - I will tell you that recently my little guy had strep. The pediatric nurse emphasized the need to throw the toothbrush out and get a new one after he'd been on an antibiotic for 24 hours to avoid reinfection. It makes sense. As for sterilizing the toothbrush on a regular basis, no, I don't see the need anymore than sterilizing our spoons, cups, and glasses - although obviously we don't share them with others before they have been washed with soap and water, or run through the dishwasher. And frankly, I wouldn't let my little guy - or anyone else in the family - continuously use a cup or spoon day after day (the way we use our single spacers) without cleaning them thoroughly too. But I think of it this way (not saying I'm right here, just sayin . . . . ). A spacer or VHC is carrying meds - and anything else in it - to your lungs - not just your mouth or throat or digestive system. That's the purpose. The same as it is with a nebulizer - which we all pretty much acknowledge we need to disinfect and which the guidelines mandate. So my general rule is - if it's headed for your lungs, let's get is as clean as possible - disinfect. And the guidelines seem to require that too. Especially when we're dealing with an infection that we are trying to beat down and potentially eliminate. Each re-entry of the bacteria can't be helpful. I want everything as clean as I can get it each time I deliver to the lungs. I'm sure there are more thorough explanations for this, but that's my working theory! I'd love to hear others.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
So I tried holding in the boiling water and it still took off/streaked the interior compartment. When Pari calls back re the materials used to make I'll find out if that means it is just safe wear and tear or if the alumninum could have gotten into the valve and made it possible to inhall. My thought now is a stove top steam insert....not the double boiler but a steam insert where you put it on top of the water (it has holes in it not a solid bottom) and then steam stove top with the boiling water below. Thoughts???

Re the toothbrush: We have several that we run through dishwasher after each use. Still the silicone type (not sure if a "normal" toothbruth would work in dishwasher? (Have folks tried that)? I know it isn't sterile from that but at least not just festering and growing more. And I have Gammaw's approach too: Medical equipment used to inhall directly to lungs I think should be sterilized. Dishes, glasses, toothbrushes, cleaned in a dishwasher with a heated water and heated dry cycle.

Thanks Steve for thoughts.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Successful boil with Vortex:

I received the Vortex spacers today. *I first soaked it in hot soapy water for 15 min. per the instructions and then rinsed with tap water. * Then I put it in a pot of boiling water to which I had added my usual two or so tablespoons of vinegar. *It sank to the bottom. *Because foreign instructions said it shouldn't sit on the bottom, I dropped a small flat glass lid from one of my small casserole plates in the bottom of the pot so the Vortex had to sit on top of that. *Boiled 10 minutes (disinfection instructions from Infection Control Guidelines only sa 5 minutes). *Removed with tongs to air dry. *Looks good! *I see no streaking or deterioration. *Cap still fits.

I also see that it says it's top rack safe in dishwasher - but doesn't restrict the dishwasher temperature to 158 or below the way the Aerochamber does. Nor does it tell you NOT to boil it or disinfect it the way so many other spacers do. *So it appears to me even the ones sold in America can be subjected to processes that we generally use to disinfect - high temp dishwasher, steam, boiling, etc. *Pari doesn't suggest it will be disinfected when you're done. *And I'm ok with that for now. *I feel a lot closer to disinfected than I am with the other spacers.*
 

Ank

New member
Last tym i boiled a space,it lost its shape.

Best way to disinfect will be to put it in warm soapy water for 20 min..Dont use a soap with strong scent
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Yes Ank, most spacers will distort when boiled. But the Vortex can be boiled. That's been confirmed by Pari, and is in the materials for care of the Vortex in foreign countries. And the instructions in the U.S. do not state that it cannot be boiled - a warning that occurs in the instructions for all the other spacers I've reviewed. My own trials indicate Vortex can be boiled with no adverse effects!!!!
 
T

The Dot

Guest
It is a metal spacer, so obviously made with the intent of being boilable. Of course, no manufacturer is going to go out on a limb and recommend anything that has not been tested in a laboratory under strict controls. Nor will they tell you that their product is completely disinfected by any method unless they have spent the $$ to do the research to prove it, which most spacer manufacturers have not. Gammaw, your testing here has proven to me that the Vortex holds up under fire - literally - thanks!
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Yes, Dot. The entire barrel seems to be metallic. I believe the metal lining was in part designed to avoid the problem of static buildup which attracted the particles in the medicine itself and resulted in less than optimal delivery of the med to the lungs. And the hard plastic type material in the valve chamber seems to hold up well too. Apparently the regs in other countries allow Pari to represent disinfection more explicitly! AboveAll and I have exchanged numerous emails trying to figure this out in intense collaboration. It appears her pre wash in her dishwasher - perhaps because it is without a rinse aid? - may have caused her discoloration inside the metal chamber. Perhaps oxidation or some other chemical reaction. Perhaps it has to do with the addition of vinegar I use for our hard water. In any event, I have boiled two different Vortex chambers with complete success - as I would have expected given the instructions in the materials Pari provides to other countries. So I too cannot guarantee they are "disinfected." But they are a whole lot closer than the spacers I have been cleaning through other methods up to now. I have thrown all the others in the trash!
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
AboveAll - I just saw your questions re using the steamer pot - sorry! I wouldn't use it frankly. The CFF guidelines talk about disinfection by boiling for 5 minutes (which would mean in the water itself), or two methods which I suspect rely on steam - the dishwasher or electric steam sterilizer. But when using the dishwasher method, you have to be sure your dishwasher reaches 158 degrees F. for at least 30 minutes. I don't think you can be sure your pot steamer would maintain those temperatures for that long. I also don't think most dishwashers reach that sustained temp, but you'd have to check with the manufacturer. If you're going to boil in a pot, you might try using a multi-pot or spaghetti pot that has a metal strainer or colander type insert and placing the Vortex in that to keep it off the super hot bottom of the pot. I have one I now use for all the neb cups so I can fit 8 or more in there at a time. I will try it too. . . .
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Thanks Gammaw. I'm going to give it another shot boiling with handwashing. Also, fyi: I have popped the top parts off very easily to get the valve boiled and dried separately and it is pretty easy...well, it is because I put those through the dishwasher before the boil with the nebs. (I do them in one load and then boil). That will leave just handwashing the chamber separately and then putting in to boil with the glass lid like you suggested. I have 3 so that will make it easier not to have to have a constant battle.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Ps dh says we don't have hard water but I had put the spacer on the bottom shelf and he said t looked like a chemical faction. When I did it next time on the top shelf s farther away from the detergent the results we not nearly as bad...but still affected the coating. So me to try a hand washed one.
 
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