stomach aches

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Thanks Diana! And to clarify: Those foods would typically precede the bad spells. He didn't get stomach aches right after them. He might slow down in stools; then in eating; then say his tummy hurt here and there; and then 10x a day throughout the day (eating, not, etc. etc.), and it would continue long past when a food should cause a problem (which makes me think it was doing something either to start accumulation of the sticky dios-type stool or was putting the bacterial gut balance out of wack.)
Also wanted to share this link which I thought very informative: http://www.cfmedicine.com/htmldocs/CFText/dios.htm
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
This link is excellent. Thanks a lot for sending. my daughter's case is similar to your son. I will be extra careful now in order to pinpoint all the danger foods. The longest time we've had so far without pain since september is 10 days. Let's hope and pray for more.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
I'll send up the prayers too. There's actually a patron saint of GI troubles who a dear friend called on for intervention! go figure (not that I can remember now!). yes, I just discovered that link recently and think it is soooo amazingly clear and also states so clearly CF constipation is NOT the same as other types; and that the sticky stool "accumulates." And I love the step by step approach to different scenario.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Hi, we are back to pain once a week. A little less intense though. From 11/10 in december we went to 7/10 decreasing after passing stool. It's weird, a day after the bomb there is only water coming out and suddenly there is pain and bulky stool. It must be the one that accumulates in corners!
We started another set of flagyll yesterday, the dose is doubled, plus bissacodyl twice a week, before and after the bomb. The GI has consulted with other GIs, and i am waiting for an appointment to see a GI in another hospital in the area. we are also planning the video capsule that takes pictures all along its way down.
The GI wrote at least ten emails to me this week, giving different scenarios, things I could do and that we might not be able to eliminate pain! Wonderful, very reassuring. Natasha's got another cold again! So no rest !
has anybody with bacterial overgrowth issues got antibiotics used for lung or sinus infections? And not flagyll type ?
that's the next plan if flagyll does not work.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Diana I am so sorry to hear that. It is so difficult to believe this is stool that is causing her pain. Have you tried keeping a log of everything - like food eaten, number of enzymes, stools, and anything else your GI might suggest. Could it be possible that a certain type of food triggers this pain? How long does the pain last? Any ulcerative colitis possible? Please hug her for us. I can't imagine how difficult this must be ..... and how fruateating. I hope your new GI has some insight. Do let us know!
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Thanks for your support. I have logged food a few times, haven't found anything obvious. It's when I add a little more oil or butter in the food, it comes out straight, she does not absorb it. I have stopped that now. She's on antibiotics now for her sinus infection. We stopped the flagyll. We're still doing the super laxative drink in the we. Let's see how it goes.
I'll check for what you suggest, i don't know what it is.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Hey everyone, there is a world GI conference in Banff, Alberta, Canada untill tomorrow. My GI is there and we've been communicating through email. She talked about my daughter to a couple of GI working in CF clinic and they all said she is a very severe case. Last week, she had severe pain three days out of seven, and missed those days in school.
she takes 2.5 caps laxaday, which is us equivalent for Miralax, and does a heavy clean out in the WE, still not enough. She had boost twice last week and the pain came the next day. She had no oil in the stool though.
Anybody had an experience like that with boost essential for kids?
She goes to the bathroom 5xday. We are on Flagyll now but does not show any improvement. She had nausea all day yesterday. She has domperidone and prevacid as well as probiotics. My doctor wants to give a pill that will help for the pain, and also some adult medication:

is anyone on Lubiprostone or prucalopride, they are used for constipation.?
has anyone heard about anybody taking them?

Aboveall, have you met with your team, i would really appreciate if you could give me some insights.

Thanks for helping, anyone.


Diana, mother of Natasha almost 13, DDF508
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Hey Diana,

Sorry it is continuing. I know how so horribly hard this is. Our son TOTALLY had issues with Boost Essentials which had "fiber" (which is the "standard" for the stuff in the store. It's been a long time since then, but it was within 1 day he'd get backed up. We now do the Boost Kids Plus Essentials WITHOUT fiber and that has helped a ton. I'd see if you can get that.

Is she on the probiotic?

What about a higher dose of daily maintenance. We were at 2.5 but with directions if pain started/stool lowed to go up 1/2 a dose every three days and then if that didn't help to do a clean out. We've been steady at 3 for a while because he went from 5 to 1 stool and had the pain. He's started on the wrong path a couple times and I cut back on bread and cheese, increased water and exercise and upped to 3.5 for 3 days, have worked it out. We go in 3 weeks for first follow-up since the appointment although I did call to get some reassurance on the Miralax because of FDA's order for further testing for chronic use in high doses. Frankly, I don't expect much because I think they think its "nothing" but in his head or in his "nervous" system, now that I know what "functional stomach pain" means! But I'm going to explain all the details and also highlight the issue of the poop sticking in corners for your daughter as well as that article I posted above noting the accumulation of stool, and see if we can get on the same page.

So sorry Diana!!!
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Hi thanks for replying. She takes probiotic biogaia but I am thinking of going back to culturelle, biogaia has not improved her situation.
How much culturelle does your son take? do you give him adult doses for Miralax? Do you give him milk of magnesia or senn? Or anything else on a regular basis?
In Natasha's case, she gets plenty of stool so it's hard to really predict when she will have pain.
So the boost you're using is not Boost essentials for kids 1.5? We can't get the one with fiber in Canada, they say there is already fiber in it but in the box, does not say "with fiber". It only comes on special order and it costs a fortune, not covered by insurance!
We are also thinking of increasing the daily dose to 3 instead of 2 or 2.5 sometimes. And the weekend bomb becomes the super bomb just like for a scope prep. My poor girl was saying the other day, they should just remove my belly so I don't have pain any more! It was too much.
My GI wants to give specif constipation pills but DIOS is different than regular constipation. She also wants to give this medication they use for functionnal pain...
There are so many questions and so few answers!!! And so many Maybe's.......
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
My son takes 2 cultural health per day. He also does 6 ml of milk mag daily...the senna is his clean out procedure which we haven't had to do yet. He drinks boost kids essential 1.5...it doesn't have fiber. The one with the fiber was causing problems for him. I just don't think it is normal constipation, although limiting breads doughy stuff and cheese helps and lots of water. I can relate...after months of ten times daily stomach aches ds would say I'm tired of my tummy hurting all the time. My take is that maybe his nerves are more sensitive and thus the pain, but I think the pain is saying the dips stool is starting to accumulate...so there is a reason for it. That your daughter had stool stuck after all the clean out tells me that can happen. My understanding with the functional pain is that after problems the body is more sensitive so maybe that's why it is still bad, but with the thought that the body is giving her a warning early that stuff is starting to build up. My thought is to discuss with gi adding milk of mag or senna daily with higher miralax and see if she just needs more....2.5 for ds wasn't cutting it and three times I tried titration back down and the pain started up. Also...if you can get the water intake up and doe cheese limited that might help too....hang in there.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Thanks for all the advice and the support. I've been logging all the food so that might help. I have increased th laxaday to three doses aday. She drinks lots of water. How do you determine the enzymes per meal?
I might have to change that too. I went back to culturelle. Let's see. She's at home this week, it's march breack here, will be easier to watch her....
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
The clinic has our son on the maximum enzyme dose for his weight per the labeling instructions. They won't "okay" a higher dose, as I know some other here seem to have per their doctors. He only eats 3 meals a day, so I don't have to worry about whether to go down for a small meal. At one point he was having floating stools and I ended up breaking his meals down more so he had less fat with same enzymes and that addressed the stools. His schedule and his preference just works more naturally at 3, so we're there now, but if she is at max and max for antiacids, you could try to break her meals down so she is getting less fat per meal with the enzymes. Those boost kids essentials have a lot of fat and 1 alone likely eats almost all the enzymes up for fat (I can't remember what the dosing per fat is but I remember checking and like 1.5 of the drinks had the fat that dosing by fat could "handle.") Good luck!
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Earlier in this discussion I mentioned that several of my specialists have recently retired including my GI doctor. My new doctors were doing their own evaluations, which was fine with me. The changes have yielded some positive results regarding that 11/10 stomach pain. In short, I have had a sustained pattern of formed, natural bowel movements for almost a month. Hosannas all around!

For most of the last fifteen years I have lived with the pattern of needing to go to bed right after a BM, the pain and nausea was so intense.To add insult to injury, my nose would become congested and very runny, I’d become seriously nauseas as a prelude to the upcoming bowel movement. For that same period, DIOS or a soft blockage in the large or small bowel was always eminent and not surprisingly my doctor probably ordered fifty abdominal and chest CT scans over those years.

I noticed something common to every abdominal and chest CT I've had for the last decade-plus. Every one noted my bowels were full. Somewhere in fifty or so CTs one would hope to find one or two tests that my bowels weren't full. Not the case. I'd be willing to bet that most CFers who don't have normal, formed stools regularly, have large and small bowels constantly full of something resembling peanut butter but more vile and toxic. Amazingly, doubling and nearly tripling my enzymes has netted something I honestly thought was just a terrible misery I was fated to for my remaining days.

Long before my late CF diagnosis I have had all the usual stomach ailments, ulcers, IBS, gastritis and GERD. Without realizing I needed enzymes, I had chronic hard constipation. As the need increased, and after my CF diagnosis, my stools went from hard constipation to CF poop which defies medical description. Maldigested food in combination with defective mucus that should be slippery instead of sticky makes something described as peanut butter, liquid nails, and molasses. It literally tears the delicate mucosa or lining of the gut as it moves through the intestines. The incomplete digestion results in some toxic, irritating chemicals, neither nutrient nor inert poop, this causes a constant state of inflammation and bloating. Enzymes aren’t the answer to every GI problem but if they aren’t in sufficient quantities to make formed stools that are normal for all practical purposes, a huge, life threatening problem is not being properly addressed.

Through more years and more doctors than I can count, I have complained time after time about my GI issues in exquisite detail and it was as if I was talking to a wall. I read so many CFer's complaining of the same problem. There really isn't any real hope of a completely normal and pain free gut but I am reasonably certain the misery can be significantly reduced. My newest GI doctor and the adult CF clinic at NJH have cracked the case! Sort of.

Actually, a lot of digging around through medical journals and related publications my wife and I finally assembled a picture of how various digestive dysfunctions look and what is the most probable and successful treatments. My new GI doctor had just taken a weekend course on CF and expressed an open attitude inviting me to forward any articles or papers that I find interesting and germane to treating my gut.

Depending on whether a CFer has GI dominant issues or pulmonary dominant, the current information is showing GI dominant CFers should be taking enzymes quite differently from those who have pulmonary dominant CF. This implies that the CFer either has some pancreatic function and/or pancreatic pain. But that isn’t written in stone, other CFers may find help in an old friend.

The enzyme formulations generally approved by insurance are all time released enzymes. Viokase, an immediate release enzyme has been on and off the market and insurance prescription lists since the 1970's. Another group of articles advocates using both Viokase and a time release enzyme like Pertzye, Zenpep or Creon. With a good hydrogen breath test confirming I have strong stomach acid, I plan to try Pertze, time release enzymes with sodium bicarbonate that buffers the stomach acid keeping digestion maximized for adequate time.

I have been having disabling GI problems for so long, the short few weeks I have had normal stools, I still have a bout of misery before and after, but it is usually a fraction of the go straight to bed plan. The 11/10 pain is probably a modest understatement. Although I still have epic pain from chronic pancreatitis, a portion of my pain management goes to the daily dump, its prelude and aftermath. But I believe that my gut has been so imbalanced for so long it may take months to reduce the inflammation.

Anybody who is reasonably intact, not missing any of the intestines but maybe the pancreas and gallbladder are dysfunctional, shot or removed, should be able to have a decent bowel movement almost every time and not have massive piles of extruded putrid eels. It would be best with a doctor who really knows his business, but they are rare. The voluminous foul smelling peanut butter bowel movements aren't just what we have to put up with. It is a primary symptom of inadequate enzymes or enzymes delivered at the wrong time. It is not rocket science but I am at a loss why doctors almost have to be stuck in the bathroom with you to get the point.

Another couple of improvements came from suggestions made by my new GI doctor. After running a hydrogen breath test a timed test to determine if I had bacterial overgrowth, (I don’t) he gave me a simple two page list of foods divided into low and high FODMAP foods. "Fermentable Oligo-, Di-, Mono-saccarides a mainly foods that we don’t have the exact enzyme to properly digest. An example is fructose, a sugar found in apples and less noble sources requires an enzyme that our body doesn’t make in order for us to properly digest it. So it ferments and we get gas and potentially bacterial overgrowth. In the "sugar is sugar" debate, fructose is partially digested using two different enzymes produced by the liver. An apple should be healthy but not two at once sort of limits are established for low FODMAP foods. Wheat is a big FODMAP villain as are most fruits with stones like peaches and dates. The list is not inviolate, I'm not giving up avocado and as long as it isn't terribly upsetting, it is fine.

For what it is worth, I have been fooled right along with a lot of CFers who don't realize that they have suffered too long for bad reasons,

LL
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
LittleLab,

Thank you so much for your extremely helpful information. I will look into the FODMAP. What you write is what my logical deduction was too...it is the sticky "molasses" poop that I've described for years which always caused the stomach pain. I understand what you are saying re the enzymes. The problem I have is our CF clinic has said "no" on above the limits for the enzymes and frankly since it is not me, I have a very difficult time wanting to make the decision to go outside the "safe" limits for a child. (I would not do on my own, obviously, but meaning with another doctor). And by modifying several factors we have been able to keep things pain free for almost 6 months other than a few hiccups where we adjust, focus on foods, liquids, and the miralax. With our son, he has ddf508, so he "should" be completely PI, even though he presents GI predominantly and not with any lung or sinus issue yet. But we have CF clinic next week and I will ask our CF doctor to reach out with her GI CF specialist re higher enzyme dosing in the event that what we seem to have a handle on, gets back to the daily pain. Thanks again for your thoughts.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
PS We have semi-annual GI in 2 weeks. Do you have any articles re the enzymes that you would recommend that summarize/highlight the points? I have the presentation from Jenny already.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Thanks for all this info LL, sorry to hear you went through so much!i'm also open to any info I can get on enzymes. Unlike Aboveall, i've been reluctant in increasing the enzymes as I think, too many enzymes causes more constipation. Our GI also says that. I also noticed a consistency in some weird poop before the pain. I'm logging the food but no obvious explanation yet. Besides the Boost for kids. That's the one your son is taking, Aboveall, we can't get the one with fiber in Canada,I was always hoping for"no pain " for my daughter, but I've lowered my standards to "as little pain as possible" , as you said LL, GIs don't have all the answers and you've seen so many!
I'll also check for the FODMAP.

thanks again.
Daiana, mother of Natasha ddf508.
 
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