A clarification of my own views.

WinAce

New member
This is a post I made to the Cystic-L mailing list, which I feel expands on my views (about how CF sucks, yadda yadda), in a way that I hope is detailed enough to sound eminently reasonable, isn't contradicting anyone specifically (who might feel they're being attacked, and not just challenged on a viewpoint), and--I hope--doesn't immediately drive some people batty, like past comments. It was about life expectancies, not complications themselves, but I feel it makes my point well. Just because some people--myself included--avoid (... up to a time, at least) many of the terrors CF dumps in our lap, doesn't mean it's no big deal.

====================

You've assuredly heard the saying that there are "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics." I think this applies very well in the case of CF (and other childhood-onwards illnesses), specifically. Let's take 10 hypothetical patients. 7 of them die around 11 years of age; one lives to 75, one lives to 64, and one lives to 48. The "mean" of their ages is 26! A few high numbers skew the statistic, and hide the fact that only 30% will reach more than 12 years of age.

I think it's much less misleading--and sobering--to glean the percentage of patients alive at specific ages, instead. While this will differ based on treatment available--hence, more patients born in 1980 are still alive at 20 than patients born in 1960--I think it will give you a more accurate picture. So, how many patients born in 1980 are still alive, 25 years later? 70%? 60%? Half of them? A third of them? I've seen so many friends die of this miserable, hell-spawned disease... but I haven't studied them from birth. Many of my generation would have died before I met them (which would mean I'd underestimate the number of dead). And, it's possible that those less ill would not post that often to groups like this, or visit clinic that often, or in general make friends based on the shared fact of CF itself (which would make me overestimate the number of casualties, just going by number of dead friends).

Realistically, how many people with CF have few enough symptoms that they can avoid being detected to adulthood? 2-5%? (Has anyone sampled the general population of 20-year olds, for instance, with genetic testing, to find the true number of asymptomatic patients?) I can't imagine the number is that high, but welcome research into the matter. And would the number of miscarried CF fetuses differ from that of miscarried anything-fetuses? (Does it cause *any* known complications in the womb?)

On a philosophical note, should someone so asymptomatic that they can go safely go without medication for years, even be called a "CF patient"? If they should, with the description being technically accurate, should that matter when discussing "CF" (the disease which does kill people, and unites people who've been through it) life expectancies? By the same token, it's technically accurate to say a man who had his leg bitten off by a crocodile, and a man who bruised one, both sustained an "injury." But how reasonable is it, to average their life expectancies (which can vary from 10 seconds, to "as long as that of someone in the general population") and determine that "we've made great strides in treating them, so leg injuries aren't that serious anymore"?

Whatever the number of deaths is, it's that number too many. That, I can say for sure. And at any rate, I'd wager good money it's no serious consolation, to a parent mourning their child, or a wife mourning her husband, that theirs had only a comparatively small chance of dying... the sad fact of the matter is, they do. And no statistic, no matter how optimistic, can obfuscate the tragedy. We should never, ever lose sight of the fact, just because a good part of those afflicted with CF can afford to make long-term plans, nowadays.

Hugs (with appropriate cross-contanimation safeguards and hospital-grade gowns, of course) to everyone. (Especially James Binegar, of <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ajcf.com/">Ask James About CF</a>, a friend who just got his lung transplant--after painstaking months of waiting--a few days ago.)
 

anonymous

New member
I had read that the median age of survival (half die before and half die after) in now about 32. Where did you find that only 30% make it to age 12? It is my understanding the 50% make it to age 32. I'll try to find the source where I found my numbers and post it.
 

anonymous

New member
I think Winace was using that as an example. Even so, you have to remember that is still 50% of the people dying before age 32. 50% of sons, daughters, friends, wives, husbands....it's people. It doesn't help any to know that 50% of the people made it farther than your loved one. I agree that we should never lose sight of the fact that CF causes tragedy. If we lose sight of that, we run the risk of lulling others into that false sense of complacency, thinking, "CF isn't that bad. I don't need to help find a cure by donating,walking,studying, etc." To me, it is that bad. It still affects me everyday, when I wake up and get my daughter ready by myself, have breakfast conversation about Dora and Boots instead of politics and how bad the newest horror movie is going to be, when I watch her preschool play sitting by myself, and when I come home and am trying to balance my checkbook, using the Tv for noise because, with Ahava in bed, it's too quiet. I feel it most of all when I sleep in a king size bed all by myself, all because of CF. I am terrified of the world thinking " It's not that bad." I'm not trying to be negative, and I don't feel I am, but I am being truthful. I want to raise up people to fight this disease, instead of having them look at statistics and say " Look, they're living so much longer now, it's not that bad." It breaks my heart to hear that.

Sorry for this ramble...
 

anonymous

New member
I agree that a 50% chance of living to 32 is not where we want want CF to stop. Heck if there was a 99% chance to make it to that age it would still be a major tradgedy to the family that lost their loved one. (And the other 99 that would still die before their peers!) I don't think anyone is trying to deny that CF is a horrible thing to live with. And we do need reality checks because sometimes you lose sight that other CFers are not doing as well as your loved one. But you can't live your life focused so hard on the negative. CFers are handed a card at birth that tells them they are not going to have a normal life expectancy and that really sucks. Nobody knows for sure how long they will spend on this earth, you just have to make the most out of the time you do have. So knowing that you or your loved one has CF really puts life into a different perspective. Priorities change and an emphasis is put on the here and now because we don't know how many tomorrows there are left.
 

Lilith

New member
Allie,

I know I've said this in a private message to you before, but it breaks my heart to hear your story. I'll be praying for you, and I feel certain that your husband is watching over you and Ahava (pretty name, by the way). Hopefully, someday, none of these statistics will matter anymore because of a cure. At least, that's what I try and believe.
 

anonymous

New member
I get what your saying. I would really like to know those percentages if they ever did it. It would be interesting to see. "mean" average really means nothing at all...no pun intended. Because it really isnte excatly half and half. Like Winace said high and low numbers greatly affect the average. So getting percentages might be more accurate for people born in a certain time frame.

On another note. JAMES GOT HIS TRANSPLANT???? YAY!!!!!!! I used to go to the CF 4 Christians site he started and i dont know why I just stopped. But I always think of him. He created that banner on CF 2 Chat.
Go JAMES!!
 

Allie

New member
Thanks Lilith, Ahava actually means love in Hebrew, and we thought it would be perfect for her. I don't mean to upset you though, my personal view just is that the world in general tends to think CF stops affecting when it kills it's victim. And it's just not so.

I know Ry has to be watching over the two of us, else I would never have managed to balance said checkbook.lol. And I too, have to believe there will be a cure. Preferably within my lifetime, so I can hold a huge party.
 

serendipity730

New member
Just to let you know. This year's patient registry (which all our data collected by the CF Foundation) found the median life expectancy to be 35. I agree with Win Ace. I would like to know what the stats are on people more in 1982. Obviously, they aren't the people who are 35 yet. I also agree that adding in people who are diagnosed at 30 is misleading. To my knowledge, they are only around 5% of the CF population. I would like to see the CF Foundation recalculate the life expectancy, omitted those diagnosed after 18. One last comment I have is CF does not cause complication in pregnancy likely to result in miscarriage. Babies with CF may be born a bit early (I was two weeks early) if they are pancreatic insufficent.
 

anonymous

New member
Winace,

Your letter brought up some very interesting observations and questions that I also have often thought about. My daughter was born in 2003 with what is called a case of "classic CF" - early failure to thrive, early onset of respiratory problems.

I have been told that those being diagnosed later and/or those who are pancreatic sufficient only comprise about 10-20% of total CF cases. So they really don't change the median that much. I also think it's important that we all realize that "mean" and "median" are two different things. The CFF reports the median, meaning half die before 35, half die after.

I would be interested to see the median age survival for those who are born with "classic CF". Not just failure to thrive, but also early onset of respiratory complications. I find that lumping every case together (on the statistical level), is sometimes comparing apples to oranges.

I think it would also be interesting to see statistics dependant on the categories of the mutations a person carries. For example, my daughter appears to carry a category I and a category II mutation. Would there be any statistical difference between people with mutations that fall in these categories compared to those with category IV or V mutations?

I also have been told by my pulmonologist that females fare poorer than males. Can they give us the median survival rate of these two sub-groups? My daughter is half-hispanic, and I have been told that female hispanics also often fare poorer irregardless of economic differences. I would appreciate further research on this.

These are just questions that I often wish I had answers. I know that CF is terribly unpredictable, and often has no rhyme or reason, but I often wonder if these statistics would shed some new light on the disease and further research.

Maria (mother of three daughters, the youngest, Samantha w/cf)
 

JazzysMom

New member
As far as the statistics regarding CF itself I do feel it is not an accurate portral. As far as CF women I believe women in general tend to have more stressed (60% of women die of heart disease) related illness so if you add what stress does to your body with CF & its a bad combination. I also know that many latino women & often children dont have a good survival rate. Locally we have a lot of hispanics & the obituaries in the newspaper are always showing latino children dying at a very young age. I am not sure if it is genetics or due to lack of care because of ecomonic or culture differences. I wouldnt want to be the people trying to keep accurate statistics. There is a lot that can be throw into the equation especially as more biracial children are born. There is no cut & dry race like it use to be.
 
6

65rosessamurai

Guest
Wait a Minute!!!
Quote- <b>WinAce</b>

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>On a philosophical note, should someone so asymptomatic that they can go safely go without medication for years, even be called a "CF patient"? If they should, with the description being technically accurate, should that matter when discussing "CF" (the disease which does kill people, and unites people who've been through it) life expectancies? By the same token, it's technically accurate to say a man who had his leg bitten off by a crocodile, and a man who bruised one, both sustained an "injury." But how reasonable is it, to average their life expectancies (which can vary from 10 seconds, to "as long as that of someone in the general population") and determine that "we've made great strides in treating them, so leg injuries aren't that serious anymore"? <hr></blockquote>


Unfortunately, your view HAS contradicted someone! Not to say I personally feel attacked (but I feel a hint it could have been directed at me without names added, due to my current curcumstance's, which you wouldn't understand), but I personally believe that your general statement needs correcting, because it seems to me your point of veiw lacks additional facts!
I am one person who had gone ten or more years without (prescribed) medication for lung infections nor for pancreatic functions. Though the definition of "safely" can be based on point of view, then I'd have to say without being hospitalized, dying or having some traumatic incident occur, I "safely" went for years without such "medication" (another vague term-does it mean prescription? over-the-counter? doctor recommended?) Your definition of "CF Patient", and your example of the definition "injury" is like comparing apples to oranges--No relation other than Apples and Oranges are both a fruit.
A "CF Patient" is defined as a person who has been DIAGNOSED (Using medical related apparatuses and medical doctrine) as having CF. Since it is genetic, and we all know by now that genes can mutate, some "CF Patients" go on for years before any symptoms even show they have the CF gene. (I'm sure people veiwing this forum fit that catagory). So whether I have chronic problems or not; defined by medical terms, I am a "CF Patient".
In my case, my mother suspected I had a problem since I was born, and it wasn't until my younger sister was born with complications that by luck, the doctor doing the follow-up heard of CF and symptoms that corresponded to it--I was seven then. During those years, and even into adulthood, I've had several occasions of pain and suffering (mental as well as physical) related to CF, none to compare to others (perhaps including you) with CF, but if you think that one who goes without medication for years (Yes, I did have medications before coming to Japan-Even an I.V. antibiotic at one time) is not in your book as a "CF Patient", you have more "philosophical thinking" to do.
So, if you are suggesting by your "example of an 'injury", that the progress in treatment for CF doesn't still consider CF as "serious", then why do they still continue research? In my opinion, I don't think they'd continue just to find a way to mutate the gene back to submission (a word I'm trying to define as completely wipe out the CF gene). Those who still have need for antibiotics for infections still need the research for treatment; and since the infections are known to either go into mutation, too; or they just become more resistive to drugs, hence another form of treatment is necessary. (I'd even think if the guy/gal doing research at the foundation ever saw this he/she may feel insulted that his/her hard work is not appreciated)
Like some others I've observed in this Forum who didn't know until serious lung involvement had hospitalized them, I fear that I may one day suddenly have lung capacity go from 100% to 25% within a short time! (And, yes, I am taking precautions NOW to prevent that scenario)
And, before crucifying me with my own words about not having medication for years, I was put into a circumstance which I was unable to be provided by proper medical care, and that circumstance is one item on the list as to why I recently divorced too. (Of which reasons I'm not going to expand on)
Before feeling "philosophical (In this definition; concerned with deep questions of life)" again, put yourself on the other side of what you are saying for a moment, and get some facts to base it on, not some hypothetical situation where facts can contradict it.
I'm also going to add that the fact related to the lifespan of CF patients is longer than 12 years. That's an old statistic, and when I was 20, I heard that the statistics had increased to 18, and more "CF Patients" such as I, were past 18 at the time. (Oh yea, I"ve lost a few friends about that time, when they reached 17 or 18 and died of complications related to CF)
Everyone has two different views in life, pessimistic and optimistic. (You know, the glass half empty vs. the glass half full.) Based on what I've read in your posts, you seem to be more of the "half empty" type. I once was, too, until some things in my life changed that way of thinking. Through that way of thinking I found more challenges easier to overcome. I can't tell you to do the same, it'll be like taking a horse to the water-trough, you can take him there but he has to be thirsty enough to drink. But I am expressing my view as being what I see in you, and I wish for you to learn from it.
I'm not a psycologist, nor psychiatrist, so I can't understand why you feel the way you do. I'm not in your shoes to understand your point of view, and your feelings, but you are not in my shoes, either.
I really didn't want to get involved in this, but I felt the desire to correct your statement, giving facts from personal experience to base it on. Why do I spend my personal time to do this? I feel that some of your profound statements, without malicious intent, was being taken as malicious, and felt the desire to express my opinion, and invest the time for it, basing it on personal experience to contradict your statement.
And though you stated your post as hoping not to cause conflict (unintentional malice) to those reading it, well, it happened.
Therefore, I'm posting my opinion, am taking responsibility for it, and will accept and deal with the consequences of those who may disagree with me.
(P.S. My blessings to your friend, James)
 

Allie

New member
I think it was only presented as a question of statistics. Congrats on being able to go for years without medications, and I pray for your continued health, but most CF patients don't have that luxury. So-called 'classic CF' survival rates would, I think, be not as high if they didn't include 'atypical CF' more like yours. I think that was the only point, please don't take it personally. CF is all important, I just think the worry is that people will think it's no longer a "big deal' if they see higher numbers.

I hope that made some sort of sense....
 
6

65rosessamurai

Guest
Allie,
thank you for the clarification.
However, if that were how WinAce would have put it, in more of an upbeat way of putting it, there may had been less of a contradiction.
I also wanted to point out in that post, and this, that what words are being chosen are going to be taken a thousand ways, so it's important to choose carefully if you don't want to cause conflict to your readers. Everyone is free to express their veiws, that's an American freedom, but those who were careless or clumsy in their choice of words had consequences for their statements.
Perhaps the only fault in the statistics is that the numbers are not being seperated as "Classic" and "Atypical".
 

Lilith

New member
Heh...if there are people out there that think CF isn't a big deal, I'm gonna bring 'em to my house for a day when I'm on IV's. I wonder how many would faint at the sight of me drawing my own blood from my own mediport, or seeing the nasty color of my phlem. I'd bet they change their tune *lol* But seriously, I don't think CF gets as much publicity as it should. In my 19 years, I've heard *maybe* two news reports on the subject. Not that AIDS and cancer don't deserve the spotlight, but they seem to hog it all and it kinda pisses me off when CF gets bumped to the side. No one in my high school even knew what it was except for maybe one person. I kinda became the poster child...not fun. Even the science books (at least at high school level) only get one paragraph vaguely explaining the disease itself. It sucks, in my opinion. Just thought I'd share my view.
 

anonymous

New member
I'm particularly interested in CF statistics reflecting men, my age, who are me. Also, any philosophical notes leading to the conclusion that I don't actually have CF would be vastly appreciated.

Q
 

JustDucky

New member
It's interesting how statistics are formed....when I took statistics in college the professor actually said that statistics could easily be manipulated. For instance, ,when you see those commercials that say 3 out of 4 dentists prefer brand X to brand Y, I have to wonder, how many dentists were actually interviewed with that question. For all I know, only 4 dentists were asked that question! As far as CF goes, maybe the "classical" statistics should be separated from the "atypical" statistics, with classical I mean failure to thrive, early pulmonary involvement at a young age. I wonder what the results would show....I would definitely fit into the atypical category...I wasn't diagnosed until I was 33...although I could have been diagnosed earlier if there weren't so many other health issues so who knows.
Either way you crack it, CF is no fun to live with...the IV's, the treatments, CPT...the list could go on and on, but at least because of those treatments we are here longer. With all of my other health issues, it can be very overwhelming at times...like oh crap, I know I am getting another infection and need IV's, usually means hospitalization for me as well as many other folks. That means more time away from my kids, friends and family. So...I do take it day to day, if I feel good, I make it a point to enjoy the day...because my next day can change radically.
Hugs to all, Jenn <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 

Grendel

New member
I agree mostly with WinAce.

I would also like to add this interesting wrinkle, ... Among my family, one of which have died of Cancer, we respectfully refer to Cancer as a "wimp" disease when compared to CF. Living and dying of CF is like falling off a cliff in slow motion, you know you are going to die, and how, only it is slow, painfully slow, impatiently slow to kill. However, Cancer, in its own blessed way either takes you quickly or you are cured of it. And when I say quickly, I mean between 4 years and 2 months. CF is a lifetime battle, the only blessing of which is that there is a great varience in its manifestations. Unfortunately, many of which are much much worse than Cancer.

That is why I think, despite my admiration for Lance Armstrong and his successes, his overcoming Cancer is boring and pedestrian, and offers little if no inspiration to me. If my view could be easily explained without offending the simpletons, I would love to wear a t-shirt that says on one side: "CANCER is for wimps", and on the other it would read, "Try having Cystic Fibrosis, ... the only easy day was yesterday!" Or, ? Try having Cystic Fibrosis, we could eat Cancer for Lunch and still be hungary.?
 

JazzysMom

New member
Having lost many, many people to different forms of cancer "I" dont feel comfortable truly comparing the difficulties of CF to Cancer. To say CF is a lifetime struggle vs months of chemo/radiation/surgery & the complications/side affects that occur for whatever time the cancer treatment is received is accurate, but not necessarily fair. Every illness has a certain amount of its own "issues" associated with it & just like with CF it depends on the person as to what is "tolerable". I would still choose CF over some illness/disabilities that make me helpless from the beginning such as CP, advanced MS or other physically challenging illnesses. Just as much as I feel like a burden at my worst, I am sure these people feel like a burden more often. As to preferring Cancer over CF (at this point in my CF) I would say no. I wouldnt want the pain, sickness & other joys that come with the normal treatment of cancer just to often sumcumb to it in the end. I would prefer quality over quantity, but its easy for me to say since at the moment I have CF only to deal with & tho it has its times.....I am pretty happy & healthy all things considered. As far as the falling off the cliff scenario of a CF death, I guess using that, I wouldnt be looking at the point/time of impact as much as enjoying the view on the way down!
 

JustDucky

New member
I agree with Melissa...cancer is not a wimp disease. I worked with hospice and watched the suffering and terror these people faced. Some of these people fight for years, I had one patient who had recurring breast cancer..first it was in one breast, got a mastectemy, underwent chemotherapy only to find a lump in the remaining breast and having to do it all over again. The cancer ultimately went into her bones, brain and lungs and she by no means went in a peaceful manner. Her fight took years and she fought a brave battle. That is just one example, I could tell you more but I won't, you probably get the point. Being the nurse for this patient, I felt so helpless towards the end, nothing I did could take this woman's pain away...all I could do is to sit there and hold her hand and rub her back when she could tolerate it and give her pain medication. Yes CF is a terrible disease, don't get me wrong...we all live it on this board every day, and yes, it is a slowly progressive disease for most, there are exceptions though some people deteriorate quickly. With every chronic disease, it has its own horrors...As I have said before, I also have a rare progressive muscular dystrophy and I spend most of my days in a wheelchair with a ventilator, also dealing with the regimines of CF therapy..I also just found out that I have an abnormal immune system that will be evaluated at Yale or Duke university because no local doc will even touch me as far as tweaking my immune system. I am definitely not doing the "woe is me" thing, I am just pointing out that we all have our own battles and have to deal with them one way or another. I personally embrace the good days, on the bad days I try to think about what is important to me, such as my kids, friends, family etc... and it seems to help get me through it. Hugs, Jenn
 
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