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rheamc

Guest
I was diagnosed almost 2 years ago with CF after multiple bouts of pancreatits at the age of 45. My mutations are delta F508 and L206W. I live in an area where there is virtually no support for my illness and had to travel over an hour to see a specialist that had any idea of an adult being diagnosed with CF. I was told to eat a low fat diet( which is my lifestyle anyhow) and drink Gatorade to stay hydrated. Despite doing this, I still have episodes of pancreatits every couple of months or so. Some episodes are bad, some are mild. I am wondering if there is anyone with the same mutations or any advice. My lung function is fine, my pancreas is the problem.
 

nocode

New member
Hey,
I can't offer much help because CF does not affect my pancreas. Nevertheless I am a bit surprised to read that your doctor advised you to keep a low fat diet. I thought all CFers needed a diet with a lot of fat foods, but I could be wrong.
Are you taking enzymes?

Anyway, I'll let other people respond to this topic because I really have no expertise in how to treat pancreatitis in CF.

By the way, you wrote PancreaTITS, which is kind of funny.
 

imported_Momto2

New member
nocode, nope, I react really badly to fat in my diet, gives me horrible GI pain. I am on a very low fat diet.

rheamc- there are quite a few folks here with severe involvement of the pancreas, hopefully they will chime in.
 
K

kgfrompa

Guest
I do not have the same mutations as you but before I was DX with Cf I had many bouts with Pancreatits.When they put meon Emzymes I had less and now no bouts with Pancreatits.I have had my gall bladder removed at the age of 18,I also live in a remote place in the North weat part of PA.
 

lilmac7

New member
What are your symptoms exactly? Depending on that I think we can better say if what your doctor is saying about low fat foods being bollocks and whether or not you should be on enzymes.

Reason I ask for symptoms is that I've never heard my stomach/pancreas issues referred to as pancreatitis so I'm wondering if your docs are just not experienced enough with CF or something.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
You could be my twin, excepting the mutations. My CF dx came after my third acute pancreatic attack didn't go away. I was 52 while I laid writhing with pain when my wife found a pancreatic center in Boston. And so we went to Boston. After discovering my pancreatic function test was a North American record for bad, the doctor suggested testing for CF. The sweat test technically confirmed CF but a proper study matrix validating my age vs concentration hadn't been completed. The genetic test in 2003 technically classifies me a carrier. That likely will soon change as I am in the process of repeating the genetic test.

I have short periods when I am NOT suffering acute pancreatitis. Oh, for those new to that word, possibly your doctor eschews obfuscation and fears losing you with polysyllabic nomenclature. Anyway, I have heard of a scant few solutions, all I have considered and rejected, except one. A year after I was diagnosed with chronic acute pancreatitis, I visited Boston again and almost bought into denervation (lysating, dissolving or cutting) of the splanchnic nerves winding down the sides of the spine. The right nerves lead to the pancreas. At that time, 2004, your pain being cut off from your brain was even odds for one year. At the one year point half the patients remain without pain. The other half, the pain has returned. That puts odds of success at 25% by my book. Denervation amongst those who perform the procedure of denervation, which is far from new, the denervation of the pancreas this way is new, and including patients of denervation are about as hotly divided as it comes. But do your own research, see a couple neuologists and if you want to go for this solution, contact me privately. Another is an old antidepressant called Elavil, the generic name a younger doctor will recognise is amitriptylene. I doubt a mechanism is known about how this works for pancreatitis, but it does. I react badly to Elavil so it is not something I can speak knowledgeably about. Pancreatitis inflames all the area nerve bundles, putting everything in pinball mode. The pancreas goes nuts causing the stomach to express excessive acid leading to acidosis, reflux or GERD. Then you small intestines spasm producing projectile diarrhea and maybe vomiting too boot. After that celiac plexus tantrum the bowels stop moving. Constipation is a CF mechansm. Normally the bowels remove about 90% of the water contained in the food ingested. CF having a transmembrane regulator defect can suck a normally pliable stool into something resembling hard clay.

Medicine has come to the rescue with regard to consipation. Meet Amitiza. It keeps the bowel from robbing all the water from your solid waste. Titrating an appropriate amount of Mirilax rounds out the consipation problem for most CFers. That is unless you have to take narcotic analgesics. I have to take a lot and other than vigorous exercise mostly shifting the torso, what else I do is recommended by one doctor specializing in pain management, and advised against by my GI doctor so you are on your own there.

Creon or other enzyme replacement medications are an issue. By now, you are at least partially pancreatic insufficient (PI) and if you live long enough, mostly to the point of total PI for all practical purposes. You are already dealing with malnutrition if nowhere else than fat soluble vitamins, A, B, D, E and K. Check your bone density and find a restoring toothpaste and mouthwash. With all the pain you have had for years, your adrenal and testosterone may be toast. Have your testosterone level checked. CFers need all they can get.

If narcotics are your solution to unavoidable chronic pancreatitis, consider Duragesic patches. Fentanyl interferes less with the liver and the sphincter of Oodi, the valve between the common bile duct and the duodenum.

Last, do you still have your gall bladder? If so, have it removed. Or not, all this is just what I think.
 
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rheamc

Guest
Thank you for sharing. I too have chronic acute pancreatitis and maybe have one or two months without symptoms, but it always comes back. I live about an hour and a half away from Boston and also ended up going to see a GI Specialist who specifically deals with CF Pancreatitis(checking the spelling of that from now on!). He did not put me on the enzymes because he said my fecal elastase was right on the border and once you are on those, you are on for life. Should I revisit going on the enzymes? He also told me to drink gatorade for the electrolytes, which I do on a regular basis now. What about stress? Do you correlate stress with your attacks? I do not have my gall bladder, been gone for years. I do not have to take narcotics on a regular basis, only when my episodes occur. the GI doctor also put me on Miriailax and that has been a life saver. There are no physicians in the area I live that are familiar with people that have CF that only affects the pancreas. There is even a CF center in a city close by me and I was an enigma to them as well. I am glad I joined this forum, I feel better already.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
I realize your main issue is preventing or reducing pancreatic attacks. My case is hopeless at this. Not for lack of trying, however. I have tried biofeedback, nerve blocks, PICC lines for GI "vacations", diet this and diet that, magnetic wave brain stimulation ad infinatum. My only real complaint is medical advice is seemingly doled out with an eye dropper, so slowly and expensively I learned all I know. The exception being Dr. Steven Freedman at Beth Israel Deaconess Center who performed diagnostic magic.

Stress inflames the abdominal nerve clusters or visa versa, but the short answer in non CFers as well as CFers suffer the effects of stress. Can stress trigger pancreatitis? Yes. This is where biofeedback comes in. I perform it almost daily. It may help and it won't hurt. PICC vacations do not work, excepting during the time you are not eating. PICC lines I have had are inserted in the neck. But whether it is placed in your arm, neck or ear lobe, the risks are real for a whole list of life threatening issues. I go on Carnation Breakfast Essentials ( for 40 years it was Instant Breakfast) and this and similar products like Ensure help, sometimes. Keep in touch.
 
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rheamc

Guest
I saw Dr Freedman too. You're right, he is amazing. He was the first person to tell me that what I had was real and it was such a relief. I had a PICC line last summer and was on TPN for a month under Dr Freedman's care and have only had small bouts until this week. He did tell me it was more prevalent in the summer months and I do try to stay extra hydrated, but sometimes my pancreas just doesn't work like it is suppose to. I think I will contact him to revisit the enzymes. What do you do for biofeedback if you don't mind sharing?
 

Printer

Active member
I was 47 when I was dx, by then I had more than 10 years of and over 70 hospitalizations because of pancreatitis. Now my pancreases is "fried". Im CFRD and take 10 Creon 24 with every meal and snack.

Bill
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
I just spent twothumbing for an hour and lost it. Maybe I can shorten this. It appears I wrote a lot of stuff you already know. Dr. Freedman is the American authority on idiopathic pancreatic issues. He is very informed and gladly shares information. I walked out after several consults over three days, an educated patient. Likewise for Printer, he even knows DR. Freedman's schedule. Your thought of taking enzyme supplements shouldn't effect your pancreas. Creon, an enzyme coctail in pill form is taken in place of the enzymes your pancreas should. But something I have contemplated is a wild swing. Eating and drinking foods initiates a sequential dynamic process, digestion. Starting with salivary glands expressing the digestive enzyme, amylase and so on until digestion is complete. Each step in the process is autonomically sequenced by stimulus and detection. When the body senses fats entering the duodenum, the gall bladder is stimulated to spasm glopping bile into the duodenum. Bile breaks down fats. The hormone secretin is sent through the blood stimulating the pancreas to make digestive enzymes and the caustic sodium bicarbonate. Some cells in the pancreas produce mucous that like saliva, protects the cells from digestives and promote outflow into the duodenum. Here is the question, does adequate levels of orally provided enzymes turn off the production of digestive juices? The big assumption here is a thick sticky mess of digestive juices stuck in the pancreas because CF produces thick abnormal mucous loses the fight and there begins autodigestion. This is one presentation of pancreatitis since I watched for an hour, after being injected with secretin, a clear syrup about the consistancy of cold honey being sucked up from my pancreatic duct via a clear tube hooked to an optimistic looking container and vacuum pump. I am headed where printer is as CTs over the last 5 quarters progressively show now nearly all my pancreas has been replaced by fat. It's how the organ dies. However Dr. Freedman informed me after total atrophy some people's pain stops for others, the pain remains or worsens. The points I ponder are two questions. If a dead pancreas continues to be as painful, and I say with the same pattern of pain is my body still producing secretin, and the pancreas hurts by futile attempts to produce? The other more salient question I would ask Dr. Freedman is if an enzyme level can shut down production of secretin, or amitriptylene or whatever else that might work? If Dr. Freedman has an answer please post it. This could explain why going on creon or the like is a path of no return, which I didn't know.

How did I learn my bio-feedback technique? I suggest you find a bio-feedback machine you like and buy one. My journey is a bit more metaphysical. My brother got into yoga at 17. He was looking for that athletic edge. In 1962 we drove to Denver and waiting for him at a used book store was a small library of books on yoga phylosophy. They boxed the 15+ books and once home, he began to read. Next my mother read the books and finally me at 12 started reading the books. I know a lot about a lot but with yoga, I am sure it would be great to become a Yogi, but in western culture, it isn't practical. This astonishing collection of knowledge was published by The Yogi Publication Society out of Chicago Il ffrom @1900-1914. These books are still around and found through used book websites. The actual book I learned meditative bio-feedback I actually gave to Dr. Freedman along with a classic rock climbing book. I believe it was; Hatha Yoga, he might remember the name. Bio-feedback was medically introduced to me at a spine center. In my mid-thirties, malnutrition and a climbing accident my back had started to become arthritic and I was hoping to heal my back. I entered back school which one segment was bio-feedback. First I was hooked up to an EEG cap and pads with wires were applied bilaterally down my paraspinal muscles. The technician/counselor explained basically how to reach neural nirvana. Then she switched off the lights and the equipment on. My years of yoga meditation allowed me to hit the right brain waves and systematically made all my paraspinal muscles flaccid, except one bilateral segment. After a few sessions I could shut down everything save th left side of one segment. This indicated a structural impingement which they fixed.

I have used bio-feedback and still do regularly. As anybody who has had a gall bladder attack or pancreatitis, referred pain goes right between the shoulder blades +/-. I was shutting this down with bio-feedback! This is not mumbo jumbo and it doesn't require 19 volumes of yoga phylosophy. I once tried out a commercial bio-feedback machine at some upscale mall store. I was impressed at how closely it followed my brain wave transition. It helps like my most revered drug. Once you learn from playing with the machine, you can be in a plane ticket line and zone out. Yeah this is way more than you needed. Printer is a concise source of hand polished pearls. When he casts them, string immediately. These posts don't stay forever. Good luck, you fell into what I searched a lifetime for. That is Dr. Freedman.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Quick addendum, Hatha Yoga was written by Yogi Ramcharaka. Although bio-feedback basics can fit in a 10 page pamphlet, Hatha Yoga, assuming I have the correct title, is proprobably 160 pages. If stress is a significant issue for you, it might be worth finding the book
 

beleache

New member
Hi Rheamc, I dont have anything to add, just wanted to say welcome to the site & I hope you get some relief soon ! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> joni
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Printer: I wish I had your ability to distill information, simply state it and be done. Something I would like to know since possibly I am a younger patient on the same total PI path. I am not yet at your level of Creon, but things happened fast this last year. Do you still have pain from your pancreas?
 

Printer

Active member
Before Dr. Freedman worked with me to optomize my Creon, I would experience "digestive pain" on occasion. No pancretitis attacks for 10 years. A total burn out.

Bill
 
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rheamc

Guest
Dr Freedman did tell me that once you were on the enzymes it was forever, which is why he held off putting me on them. So, can I ask if your pancreatic insufficiency led to diabetes for either of you? I will look into biofeedback. I have a pretty stressful job, am back in school to complete my bachelor's degree, married and have teenage children, so I am pretty sure I need to learn how to de-stress a little better. I really appreciate your sharing, it has really helped me already. thanks
 
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