You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
How many people are........
- Thread starter EB24
- Start date
What you argue doesn't change the underlying nature of the problem with Heaven, Mockingbird. If a perfect existence is possible without suffering, that begs the question of why God would make anyone go through the worldly charade, in the first place. And if a perfect existence is <i>not</i> possible without suffering, then Heaven is impossible. Its nature doesn't really factor into this. If Futurama or Bruce Almighty's take is true, then Heaven would be inferior to this world, as it would involve everyone realizing that God was real (which, according to them, shouldn't happen); and that's a difficult proposal to defend.
The fact remains that omnitheistic views (the ones that accept an all-powerful, benevolent god) can only retreat to ignorance on this matter; there's no discernible reason why it should be this way, but there has to be one. Conversely, if you accept no god (or, say, a god with limited power, one that was uninterested in humanity, multiple equally powerful and warring gods, or the like) reality starts to make <i>perfect</i> sense, without any appeals to unknown explanations required.
The fact remains that omnitheistic views (the ones that accept an all-powerful, benevolent god) can only retreat to ignorance on this matter; there's no discernible reason why it should be this way, but there has to be one. Conversely, if you accept no god (or, say, a god with limited power, one that was uninterested in humanity, multiple equally powerful and warring gods, or the like) reality starts to make <i>perfect</i> sense, without any appeals to unknown explanations required.
S
SeasonsOfLove
Guest
First, let me say I'm really enjoying this thread - it's great to read all the different viewpoints! Also I'm in the middle of a big crisis on this topic and don't really know how I feel about it anymore.
I was raised in a very Catholic household as a child, fell away from it in college, and completely separated myself from Catholicism after Coll was born. She was born in a Catholic hospital and they whisked her away and baptized her while I was in the recovery room after her birth (reason given was that she might die during meconium ileus surgery). To this day I am furious about that. Coll & I later became very involved in the Presbyterian Church but aren't so much anymore. I recently replied "lapsed Presbyterian" on a hospital admission form, and one of my Presbyterian friends laughed for about 2 minutes when I told her, saying "that's pretty hard to be"!
Anyway, I'm enjoying reading all the different points of view.
I was raised in a very Catholic household as a child, fell away from it in college, and completely separated myself from Catholicism after Coll was born. She was born in a Catholic hospital and they whisked her away and baptized her while I was in the recovery room after her birth (reason given was that she might die during meconium ileus surgery). To this day I am furious about that. Coll & I later became very involved in the Presbyterian Church but aren't so much anymore. I recently replied "lapsed Presbyterian" on a hospital admission form, and one of my Presbyterian friends laughed for about 2 minutes when I told her, saying "that's pretty hard to be"!
Anyway, I'm enjoying reading all the different points of view.
L
luke
Guest
Bible yes...god yes....jesus yes....jesus was gods son yes...died for my sins yes...organized religion...maybe not so much?
Even "christians" people believe other "christians" are wrong most of the time. So I have adapted my life to the above rules.
I believe that God had a son sent in human form who then died for all of our sins. I know that since he sent his son and since I have "truly" asked him to save me of my sins I will spent my afterlife in heaven. After that I just try to live my life as a good person.
I am not perfect, far far from it. That is what makes me human.
luke
Even "christians" people believe other "christians" are wrong most of the time. So I have adapted my life to the above rules.
I believe that God had a son sent in human form who then died for all of our sins. I know that since he sent his son and since I have "truly" asked him to save me of my sins I will spent my afterlife in heaven. After that I just try to live my life as a good person.
I am not perfect, far far from it. That is what makes me human.
luke
Here's something to think about for those that believe the Bible. I know that we've thought that Christ's return was "soon" for generations, but I really am questioning that with the tsunami's (earthquakes), hurricanes, general decline in moral value, "men will be lover's of themselves", the effort to take God out of everything, etc that is prevelent today and let me just say that I'd rather have the 'return' now instead of dying from this disease first!
Mockingbird
New member
WinAce, I don't know the answer to that. That's something we christians just have to take on faith and trust God in. I mean, you're pretty much asking "What is the meaning of Life?" I'm not gonna pretend for a second to know that. =-)
Though, I'd argue that no matter what you accept, omnipotent God, limited God, or no god, that question remains just as unawnserable and I don't see how reality would make any more sense... You can pretend to understand reality as much as you like, but no matter what, all it comes down to is a matter of faith. =-)
Though, I'd argue that no matter what you accept, omnipotent God, limited God, or no god, that question remains just as unawnserable and I don't see how reality would make any more sense... You can pretend to understand reality as much as you like, but no matter what, all it comes down to is a matter of faith. =-)
I respect your thought and views, WinAce, and thanks for respecting mine.
I also agree with the whole greed and cruelty thing in some organized religions. I believe many people do bad things, but use the shield that they are church going people and could not possibly do any wrong. They give the church a bad name. Any church for that matter has these type people and I am sure we all know some. My pet peeve are the people who show up near the end of the year or whenever tax time is and drops a donation for a write off, and act like they are the best thing since sliced bread. Any donation is welcome, but it is not a payoff so you can be an idiot the rest of the year.
I also agree with the whole greed and cruelty thing in some organized religions. I believe many people do bad things, but use the shield that they are church going people and could not possibly do any wrong. They give the church a bad name. Any church for that matter has these type people and I am sure we all know some. My pet peeve are the people who show up near the end of the year or whenever tax time is and drops a donation for a write off, and act like they are the best thing since sliced bread. Any donation is welcome, but it is not a payoff so you can be an idiot the rest of the year.
ccflewallen
New member
WinAce, do you think it's possible you could be overthinking this. If it were difficult or if you had to be smart to believe in God and /or Heaven, we would be introuble. I think God wanted to make easy enough for even a child to believe and understand. Sure, there are things we cannot explain or understand ourselves. Faith is"the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I think that is in Hebrews 11 or 12.