So confused....no diagnosis...stop looking?

Kristan

New member
Hi,

I recently was diagnosed with PCD (primary cilia dyskinesia) by genetic testing. It is unfortunate that a nasal oxide test is not available to give you a quick result. I only had a genetic test for the common CF mutations and did not come up with one...they checked 3 times since my lungs present just like CF! I think I was told that there is a 5% chance to have two rare genes. The genetic testing for PCD did check CFTR genes and I did have a hit. It would be great if you can get this testing done and may prove to be a starting point for more...but the results took over 2 months. If you check the PCD website there is a list of hospitals that are part of a consortium. I think there is a hospital in Indiana, and what is nice is that the PCD doctors are also CF doctors. You could call them for thoughts and advice.
Do not stop pushing. For PCD there is a point where you seem to grow out of it (Cinderella period), but if you know you can follow CF protocol and minimize damage in adulthood. Good luck
 

wcherri

New member
hello again,
I agree with Kristan about checking out a PCD clinic. I travelled from Chicago to North Carolina this year to meet with someone at UNC. Although my PCD testing seems to be going in the direction of "negative" for PCD, it will be good to rule it out since my symptoms lean toward CF and PCD.
My labs aren't making sense with my symtoms. For instance, my sweat tests were all borderline and positive as a child. Now my sweat tests are negative for CF. My CF doctor is confidence I need to be treated as a CF patient and CF has not been ruled out. It just can not be confirmed at this point since I have only one know CFTR mutation.

If you are in Wisconsin, there is a new PCD clinic in Indianapolis. It looked like there was one opening in Chicago, but I can't find any info on it now (with Dr. Prickett). I hope you get more answers soon!
 
M

mom2girls

Guest
Well, seems my insurance isn't going to be cooperative. They said that approx 80% of requests for genetic testing are denied b/c it doesn't change the treatment. Still submitted request for genetic test for PCD. I'm checking into going to Riley in Indianapolis to meet with people there and have nasal nitric oxide test done and whatever else they feel is warranted. I'm a bit concerned that it will end up being very expensive though so we'll see. I also got in touch with people doing studies relating to PCD...just trying to set up a time to talk and see if my daughter qualifies for the study. I believe genetic testing is part of the study.
 

Rebjane

Super Moderator
Actually, genetic testing on CF patients absolutely does change treatment.. The insurance company is wrong. I would contact a lawyer if you want to pursue testing. Two drugs: Kalydeco and Orkambi target specific CF mutations and are only prescribed if the CF patient has that particular mutation. You also have to be a certain age to take those meds. The wave of the future of CF medicine is targeted to mutation specific medication. "precision medicine" . The insurance company I am sure is not informed and would not you to be prescribed these medicines anyway because the cost is VERY high.
 

Simba15

Member
Appeal that in writing immediately and send it certified mail. It absolutely does change treatment. CF means you need a CF clinic and CF specific meds like pancreatic enzymes, orkambi, specific antibiotics and nebulizer meds.

PCD does not use the same meds.

Accurate dx affects not only health care but 504 plans in school; disability applications, etc. this is far reaching.

when you write your letter, CC your congressman and senator and state office of insurance compliance.

Well, seems my insurance isn't going to be cooperative. They said that approx 80% of requests for genetic testing are denied b/c it doesn't change the treatment. Still submitted request for genetic test for PCD. I'm checking into going to Riley in Indianapolis to meet with people there and have nasal nitric oxide test done and whatever else they feel is warranted. I'm a bit concerned that it will end up being very expensive though so we'll see. I also got in touch with people doing studies relating to PCD...just trying to set up a time to talk and see if my daughter qualifies for the study. I believe genetic testing is part of the study.
 

Printer

Active member
One last time, your DD must be seen at an APPROVED CYSTIC FIBROSIS by a CYSTIC FIBROSIS SPECIALIST. Anything less is simply fighting with windmills and preventing your DD from getting a proper diagnoses.. Even the "sweat test" that she was given is only a "screening sweat test", she needs the REAL SWEAT TEST.

Go back on your post and see how many people have told you to do this.

Tell your PCP that if she doesn't give you a referral, you will find a PCP who will. Then do it!!!!

Bill
 
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mom2girls

Guest
You're right. I need to put my fears of them thinking I'm a crazy, obsessed parent aside. Everyone around me, except you on this forum, are saying to treat her symptoms and I feel like they think I'm looking for something to be wrong with my daughter. I hope they're right and she will grow out of this but something is wrong and I like answers. I spoke with nurse at Riley Hosp in Indy (part of the PCD studies). She is going to talk with the lead doctor there and get back to me. Hoping DD will qualify for a study but I'm doubting it since she didn't have a cough as an infant/toddler and didn't have a lot of sinus infections but we'll see. Looking into going there for a 2nd opinion anyway...would make sure with CF doctor.
 

Printer

Active member
Treating her symptoms would not be a bad idea however only a CF SPECIALIST has the knowledge of the drugs available to treat her symptoms (CF).
 
M

mom2girls

Guest
I'm waiting to get appt with CF specialist.wait list ...trying to get in before months go by. While I wait, also waiting to see if insurance will cover what genetic counselor requested most recently. This is what she requested after they denied whole exome sequencing....multi-gene test panel for genes associated with PCD, including CFTR gene which is causitive for CF. I'm just starting to learn about the genetics, will we get much info from that test, if approved? Any idea how many mutations can be found in that gene?
 

Simba15

Member
I would push for CF dna blood test. why? All CF is not alike. Why can't the CF clinic at your hospital order this?
I'm waiting to get appt with CF specialist.wait list ...trying to get in before months go by. While I wait, also waiting to see if insurance will cover what genetic counselor requested most recently. This is what she requested after they denied whole exome sequencing....multi-gene test panel for genes associated with PCD, including CFTR gene which is causitive for CF. I'm just starting to learn about the genetics, will we get much info from that test, if approved? Any idea how many mutations can be found in that gene?
 
M

mom2girls

Guest
I was going to wait to ask a new doctor about getting more CF testing since our current pulm looks at me as if I'm crazy when I ask about CF and my daughter b/c her darn sweat test was so low. I will definitely pursue it.....just deciding if push with current doc or wait for new dr appt. Just thinking about her sweat test....DD was diagnosed with probable ectodermal dysplasia a few years back due to not sweating and overheating easily. If she has it, it's very mild and she is starting to sweat now a bit..hands, feet, under arms. If she has a genetic disorder making her not sweat properly, I wonder if her sweat test was accurate. I know the test showed they had enough sweat to run the test but wonder if it's possible if wouldn't be accurate. Something more for me to ponder.
 

Ratatosk

Administrator
Staff member
If your current doctor(s) aren't taking your concerns about symptoms seriously and are not treating the symptoms, then I would look for another doctor. You as a parent know in your gut that something is going on with your child and you'd like some answers.
 
M

mom2girls

Guest
Yes, I am getting an appt with a new doctor. It's the waiting game now as it takes months to get in. I'm trying the approach of calling checking on cancellations daily as well as getting an appointment in the books.
 
L

lauryn.tubes

Guest
Just wanted to let you know that the CF world is learning more and more about this disease every day. My daughter has a CRMS diagnosis with two CF mutations. DF508 and then a more rare, less severe F1052v. Her sweats are in the mid 20's so definitely negative - yet others with her mutations are PI and my daughter has cultured pseudomonas. Our pulm explains that yes, her salt transfer works on her skin....but what about inside her body? That's this new grey area that no one knows about. So just because your child has a negative sweat test does not mean that they do not have CF.
 
M

mom2girls

Guest
Thank you for your insights too. It's just sad that patients need to explain that to the doctors. Hoping our new doctor will be up on all of the research.
 

Printer

Active member
There are almost 2000 known mutations. Any 2 mutations will cause CF. if you multiply 2000 X 2000 you get 4,000,000 combinations of mutations. Add to this the fact that identical twins with the same mutations CAN be affected by CF differently, from each other.

Only CF SPECIALISTS at a APPROVED CF CENTER are up to date on CF. It is extremely unlikely that you will find a non-CF Doctor who is anywhere near "up to date". My CF SPECIALIST is an internist and prior to going into specializing in Cystic Fibrosis, in all those years of practice he only saw one CF patient.

It is not that local Doctor's are stupid, they are just ignorant of CF. If you had a "Brain Tumor" you would not let your local Doctor treat it, enough said.
 
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mom2girls

Guest
I agree 100% with what you're saying and that's why we're switching doctors. DD is still coughing, wet, gunky cough. Added albuterol, which helps for a bit, and increased advair to highest dose. Yes, maybe she just has a cold but hubby and I feel like she's a ticking time bomb....last year, anytime she was like this it ended with bacterial pneumonia after week or month of coughing symptoms. I agree the doctors aren't dumb but it still scares me when my doctor said, "that doesn't happen" when I mentioned having cf with clear sweat test. I am a speech pathologist but would never see patients with certain conditions without further education so I guess it's the same in the field of pulmonology.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Being diagnosed at 52 has had the unintended consequence of not being overly impressed by medical diagnosis and to a lesser extent doctors in general. When it comes to a CF diagnosis, often the spectre of most medical doctors delving into the science of genetics strikes me like a mother watching their young child lighting and throwing firecrackers.

I would hate to think that insurance companies decided to take some of my pre-Kalydeco remarks about the merits of genetic testing for CF and try to make them policy. Just kidding, I hope. I'm an old geneticist who is reasonably current in the science. Before genetic drugs that can arrest the disease in one mutation set and the completion of finding and listing all CFTR gene mutations, I saw genetic testing as little more than a novelty. It was all too often fodder for causing doubt in both the doctor and patients when there simply wasn’t enough information. Its merit was questionable, but no more. It is also just a waste to perform incrementally more inclusive genetic tests. Anything less than a full genetic assay for the CFTR gene is like a dermatologist checking your right leg for any suspicious moles when your entire skin surface is suspect. Eventually all four limbs, the head and trunk are checked but what is the logic?

My low opinion of the testing was further fueled by the interpretation of the results. Kristen was given a 5% chance of her coming up with two rare genes. If you undergo a medical test with a 5% chance of serious complications or death, you have to sign your life away. Chances are relative. With genetic testing you confirm that you have CF or you have PCD only, or possibly both, why not? A misdiagnosis here means that you may be undiagnosed for CF, something that includes the GI tract and possibly years of malnutrition caused by complications of CF. I'm paying for the 52 years doctors missed my CF, mild by definition, but time has not been kind. Malnutrition kills like slow poison and to see a 20 year old CFer with arthritis is infuriating let alone a 30 year old as I was when they discovered I had osteopenia.

The traditional definition of CF is having two identical CFTR mutations known to cause the disease. Anything else was NOT CF. This held for about 16 discoveries of additional mutations. At 2700+ mutations and thousands of "symptomatic carriers" treated as full blown CF patients, the genetic definition became a moving target. Doctors floundered when the gene of a mammal was stuffed into the lucky box of Mendel's pea seed experiments that held dominant and recessive genes with the status of black and white. Dominant genes always won completely and a pair of recessive genes were necessary for the disease or recessive genetic characteristic to present itself. Mendel was amazingly lucky to choose the particular pea plants to study because in nature, black and white seem to mix it up more often than anybody first suspected.

Genetics became tangible for the general public with the blockbuster movie "Jurassic Park". Medical doctors should have taken their kids to this movie. Although the chaos mathematician wasn't credible, in my opinion, his message was. Any time a rule is made in human genetics, count on it being partially or more likely totally wrong. More to the point we now know that a T polymorphism can act like a genuine mutation. This is about as far away from the traditional belief that you must have two identical mutations.

The topic post “Welcome Ambry Genetics” is full of genetic wisdom. It is also policy that a topic post or the threads by anybody can be withdrawn and I believe Ambry may have just been doing some house cleaning, because it’s only in archives.

I have copied a portion of this conversation. An Ambry geneticist made this offer after my rather lengthy summary of how CF and its genetics has changed as new information has been made available.

“Steve” from Ambry had this to say:

Thanks LL for a good background and update for many. Just to clarify about the 5T polymorphism issue. Everyone carries a certain number of T's that are strung together in intron 8 of the CFTR gene. Most people carry 7 or 9, and about 7% of the population carry 5. Right next to this poly T tract is another string of TG's which usually number 10 or 11, and in some cases 12 or 13. When you have 7 or 9 T's the TG number is irrelevant. However, when you have 5T's and it is paired with a higher number of TG's like 12 or 13 this actually acts like another CF mutation. The higher the TG count the more severe the mutation. So if you have a 5T with only 11 is very mild or even asymptomatic. However with 12 or 13 it is more like a moderate CF mutation and when paired with another CF mutation on the other chromosome can actually cause CF. Every body is different and there is variability with all mutation combinations so you can never predict exactly how the disease will be based on the CF mutations.

Steve - See more at: http://forum.cysticfibrosis.com/thr...highlight=Ambry+Genetics#sthash.V561mzGd.dpuf

If you want to slog through my background and update on CF this is the link to the post just prior to Steve’s http://forum.cysticfibrosis.com/thr...highlight=Ambry+Genetics#sthash.V561mzGd.dpuf.

I hope this helps you figure out whether or how to pursue your answers,

LL
 
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mom2girls

Guest
Just an update and question....got approved for PCD panel test so had blood draw yesterday. Any idea how long the wait will be to get results? I know we may not get answers from this test but it's another step in the process.
 
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mom2girls

Guest
Can't get dr appts and answers soon enough for my liking. Hubby and I thought daughter maybe had pneumonia again but xray showed "little collapsed lung" probably from mucus plug. Instructed to keep with albuterol every 4 hours and acapella 2x/day. She seems to be getting better but if not, will consider steroids Wednesday. Could be much worse.
 
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