So, if ivacaftor "works", what does that actually mean?

SarahProcter

New member
I apologize in advance for how incoherent this question is.

My daughter is taking ivacaftor. In vitro tests indicated that it would work for her mutations. Once on it, her sweat test went down to 22 from >60. So, this seems to indicate that "it works" for her.

My question now is, what does that mean?

She has always been very healthy in terms of lung function, possibly in part because of having one residual-function mutation. She's pancreatic sufficient. She's always been 75th percentile for height and 70th percentile or thereabouts for BMI. Her FEV1 is usually 108%. So, since that's what she looked like, clinically, before starting to take ivacaftor, there isn't really any difference to note.

Every day, twice a day, she still does albuterol, hypertonic saline, and QVar. She does the vest (Minnesota protocol) twice a day, 30 min each, plus huff cough breaks. Once a day, she also does Pulmozyme.

So... if everything just continues like this unchanging... at some point, do we back off treatments? Drop Pulmozyme? Keep everything forever?

Do we wait five years to see how well ivacaftor works long(er) term?

Ten years?

Do we wait for some other population of patients to go off their other treatments first to see how well they do?

For years, I told myself that if one of these fancy new-fangled Vertex drugs worked for my kid, it would be a game-changer. Now that one (apparently) does, it seems like I don't know the rules to the game.

Any thoughts or experiences most appreciated!
 

kenna2

Member
The goal for this med was to keep the salt inside our bodies, keep lung functions stable, and reduce the time between IV meds. Depending on how this med works for your daughter, some things might change and some might not. I'm on Orkambi and I take the same things she does. The med works for me however, I still need to do the other meds as they were prescribed to continue to stay stable (which I've been for the past 6 months which is a new record for me). With this being a new medication, long term results are still unknown. This drug was never meant to replace other therapies.
 

MissMe

New member
That's a valid question Sarah. I don´t know the awnser though. I guess, your daughter might have the opportunity to keep her good lung function for maybe all her life, thanks to the fact that she has been given Kalydeco early in life, before any decline in lung function. She might not even need IV-antibiotics even but that´s just a guess. Maybe she won´t have to do more than one neb treatlemt a day and maybe do some sports instead, but that´s off course just my thoughts.
May I ask what residual function mutation she has? How did you access information about in vitro effect on her particular mutation?
 

SarahProcter

New member
Thanks for your thoughts, guys. For now, we're staying the course with her current treatments, but it's almost two hours a day, every day, which I know we completely don't get to complain about since others have to do much more, but still... If they're unnecessary it seems like a lot of life to spend hooked up.

Missme, our CF center, UCSF, has a clinical trial going on where they take nasal cells and test ivacaftor in vitro. So they had in vitro evidence for her cells to show the insurance company to justify the prescription. Her residual function mutation is S1159P.
 

kenna2

Member
Unfortunately, time is one of the biggest things that is taken away from us with CF. Everything does take a long time to do, but as you know, it's better than being sick (which takes even more time away from everyday life). The best way to maintain a normal life with all these time consuming things is to get into a routine and learn to multitask while doing meds. It really does make the time doing them go a lot quicker and it becomes so easy it seems like no time at all.
 

jricci

Super Moderator
Sarah,
I understand your concerns about time spent doing treatments that may not be necessary given her high lung function and apparent in-vitro correction of the defect. Hopefully there'll be research on this subject soon and it will clarify things for you.

Thanks for the information about the clinical trial. I had no idea that this was being done at this point. I thought that was where clinical trials were heading-- essentially a n-of-1 trial specific to the individual person, but didn’t realize it was happening now. I’ve been following the trials for residual function mutations closely and have been frustrated by the fact that trials have been limited by genotype, when so many others with residual function mutations had the potential to benefit. This is such promising news. Do you know the name of the study? I knew there was a small study, independent from the Vertex studies, for residual function mutations being done a few years ago at UCSF, but I thought it closed a while ago.
 

MissMe

New member
Sarah, I totally understand you ask your self if those two hours a day, spend on treatments are really necessary. Does she have any mucus at all? If there isn't much mucus to evacuate from the lungs, I honestly don't see the point in doing 2 a day. This is off course something to discuss with the doctors but what I am saying is, that with such a good lung function, she would better spend the same amount of time out in the fresh air, doing sports. That's my personal opinion and experience. When I was younger and had better lung function I hardly did nebs more than a few times a week, but I did a lot of sports. I could off corse have done more nebs and I probably should have but I didn't have much mucus to get rid of. Twice a day really restrics your life and living life while you can is also important, if it doesn't worsen her condition. Doctors will allways say: do as much as possible. They focus on the number of times you do your treatments. But in a real world setting I know that the proper breathing technique, adjusting the amount of time spent on nebs to the actual amount and viscocity of mucus that day and rather do one long treatment is so much more efficient than do several really short nebs while doing a lot of other things, not focusing on the AD breathing. In Europe we don¨t even use the west, so obviously, there are differences I guess americans wouldn't feel comfortable with. But we use NAC, a mucus thinner that is really helpfull, that most american CF'ers don't use, and it might also help reduce the amount of time spend on nebs. These are just my thoughts and my experience.
The in vitro study sounds interesting. I wonder if they will try to draw any general conclusions from it? If a specific mutation shows good results, others could also use that info while not in the trial? Are they comparing the in vitro results with that patients response in real life? The dutch are doing something similar but with organoids, min-guts grown from the patients intestinal stem cells. In Sweden where I live we have nothing similar going on... and in Europe we have NHS funding health care and it's much more complicated to get off label prescription of expensive drugs.
 

jricci

Super Moderator
Being the research nerd that I am, I’m set up with google scholar and get alerts when CF articles are published. I just received notification tonight of this article. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ppul.23659/full
Sarah, I’m wondering if your daughter is one of the 7 patients?? Very interesting results. In 2 patients treated with Kalydeco with the A445E mutation (which showed in vitro response according to Van Goor paper), sweat chloride actually increased over 20 points and their nasal cells didn’t show in-vitro response. Both of these patients were pancreatic sufficient. I don’t have access to full article so I’m not sure of the other mutations tested.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
I'll try to answer what "works" about ivacaftor. CF is a genetic disease that compromises mucus cell's ability to balance the electrolytes, specifically chlorine or the chloride electrolyte ion in table salt. We are familiar with osmosis, the free transport of water through the cell membrane that equalises electrolyte concentration inside the cell to that outside the cell. Water flows through the cell membranes without any special gates called ion channels. But, most things are controlled by the specialized gates, otherwise cells would most likely die rather quickly. No electrolyte is going to pass into or out through the cell membrane, they need to use a gate.

Ivacafter as close as I can tell, enters into the nucleus of cells and substitutes correct DNA Bases called Guanine (G) for the compatible but worthless (D) or aspartic acid. In the mutation G551D, Ivacaftor fully corrects the CFTR mutation, but you have to take it forever or until a permanent answer is found.

Why is this important? We are essentially bags of water placed in cell sized containers. For the bag of water to be embued with life, electrochemical reactions must be organized and a whole bunch more has to work together. Our blood and fluids are a 0.9% salt solution, at best, whatever salt is in a cell is divided by division. And if our sodium ion channels are missing, defective or in the wrong place, the mucus cells draw in water through unstoppable osmosis until the cell concentration of salt equals 0.9%, an obviously hopeless task. A few million cells drawing water from the surrounding environment can thicken mucus like a dried grape. Try drinking raisin mush, imagine breathing through it?

As an old, feeling pretty worn out CFer I don't have CF lungs. By the same token I constantly aspirate saliva and food. Most CFers have nasal infections and most of the infection drains over the epiglottis into the stomach. A certain amount is aspirated leading to pneumonia. CF lungs are deadly and the best way to tell if you have them is in the mucus. It's sometimes difficult to tell if you are clearing lung phlegm or nasal mucus. The rare occasion when I get pneumonia, my coughing shoots as much past my mouth as I catch. The only way I can tell for sure what is from where is to do a sinus rinse first and make sure that it is clean. It could be the ivacaftor is "working". If even that 0.9% of chloride ions equalize to the blood serum, what could be thick unmovable mucus is now water thin and properly moved by the cilia up the wind pipe and out.

When I was first diagnosed, the CF center went full tilt at aggressive treatment. I never got a vest in fact the only reason I replace my nebulizer is time. I've never worn out a compressor. I blow between 90 and 106 FEV1. There are some who wonder if they got the diagnosis right.

A lot of CFers are so focused on helping the lungs, for good reason. Everyone doesn't have to have typical CF, being atypical is a large group. I personally wonder where the GI dominant CFers are hiding. You speak of 75% percentile for weight and height. How is her tummy?

The pancreas is zapped by CF as are all endocrine glands potentially. Epithelial cells lining the small intestine, the pancreas, liver, bile ducts and gallbladder in addition to the urogenital glands all conspire to make sure that life isn't too easy. I'm as sterile as a mule, my pancreas is 95+% atrophied (not yet diabetic) and I envy those sci-fi movies where a hand full of pills passes for food. Eating makes me sick. I don't know if my single group 2 mutation would qualify me for ivacaftor but if it would eliminate the absurd level of pancreatic pain, I would pay anything.

I don't think this answers your real question, what is my daughter's life going to be like? Not to be cliché but "Que sara, sara", what will be, will be. From what I know of CFers, they are different from other people, not by much but enough to be noticed. As soon as possible she should take ownership of maintenance for CF. Count on her neglecting her maintenance at age appropriate times when her rebellion against everything happens. Nobody enjoys being sick, so don't worry too much, she'll test her boundaries just as a toddler looks back at her human safety net before expanding her experience and domain. The CFer, whether through some offsetting gift or disease is unstoppable.

I have little memory of my youngest years but the memories I have seem to involve a doctor. I recall having my eardrums lanced in the days before ear tubes and I recall my mother teaching me "The Lord's Prayer" when they feared polio. Fooled them for sure, it was encephalitis! On the heels of that fun I contracted meningitis. It was as if a hole through my nasal cavity went to my brain. The encephalitis was courtesy of a mosquito and the vast Wyoming tundra. Thank goodness that memory of pain is transitory, I still hold great sympathy for sufferers of headaches. I had an oxygen tent for a couple years and when I finally reached age 10 the only problem I had was to be alive when EVERYONE smoked! Not a problem for your daughter.

Something about needing to power through the school year sick, and being 7, being the unequivocal winner of the skinniest kid in school conditions a drive. Then again it could just be the excess stress hormones racing around areas that don't require it like the higher functioning brain, but I see something special in all CFers. A fervent love of life is good and common in CFers. Maybe we just face fear with grace. Don't worry too much, your daughter has CF, not the other way around. Aside from having a life shortening disease, she is perfect.

My own life is not the one I imagined, it was closer to my wildest dreams. Fortunately I am hyperactive, CF was just a bunch of annoying health problems for most of my life. I also bore easily and quickly get in over my head. I left a wake of destruction in my haste. All people who move forward leave that wake and I have atoned by clearing the wake left by others as mine was. My wife and I grew an idea into an international company building specialized automation. I became the company's globetrotter. I used to say that I have had more fun than any five people. A more accurate description was living more than any five people. For someone who was constantly sick, I spent half of each year traveling internationally. I've prowled the snake markets in Taipei, climbed the North Face of the Eiger, crossed the Sahara desert by camel and in business treated the international community as if they were in Chicago.

I won't ever complain about being a jet setter and I won't apologize for the adventure of a lifetime that lasted nearly 20 years. Adventure is something that is more fitting in retrospect. During these trips, time is expensive and almost beyond human capacity to keep up with. I worked an average of 18 hours daily, visiting existing customers by day and doing new business by night. A six week trip could cover the entire Asian rim from Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong to S. E. Asia including Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. Then fly through Hong Kong to Munich for a trade show, up to Norway and home. Exhausting was an understatement. It took a full 2 weeks to recover and return to a time zone. Six months of each year was devoted to international travel and I had my full time job developing new products and solutions for new customers. I was far from solo, the entire company mobilized to get a part to Hong Kong in 36 hours or start on the design of other specialized automation. Even with the best support I was dealing with normally happy clients now red faced with anger over a part failing after years of 24/7/360 usage. Fixing phantoms was my forté. The more expensive the equipment, the more frequently a mysterious occurrence. Nobody is going to own up to breaking the manufacturing bottleneck, especially when it's more expensive than the Boss's car. My point is the future, regardless of CF is limited by her ambitions.

My body finally lost to CF on the threshold of a dream. Between 48 and 50 I saw the best doctors from the Mayo Clinic to Boston's enclave of medical science. After a lifetime I had created a new company in Bio-medical automation. I had to walk away from it. Now I piddle around in a house that has three laboratories and a shop.

Undoubtedly my parents worried about me just as they worried about my brother and sister. They did fine and aside from being given the choice of going to school or staying home, when I didn't feel well, meaning that I stayed in bed and all I had to keep me occupied was my school work and book(s). I am forever grateful that my CF wasn't diagnosed when my parents passed away. I never felt sickly, avoided that label, although it was obvious that I was going to need a consistent doctor who would keep me healthy. By age 10 I was making and making it to my own doctor appointments, most times although it usually took the form of my complaint which was discussed with my parents and the "well go see the doctor if you must".

Remember that your daughter can't explain the difference between life with CF and without. It would be like trying to feel like it is to be a boy. She has CF and though I have great confidence in a genetic cure that is 100%, we cannot explain CF because we don't know what being without it is like, except for the àirway clearance and external things we do to maintain. She might not need it now or ever, the experience I had would have me blowing my lungs out daily. No phlegm or very little is a good indication she doesn't. I would run it by the doctor and be prepared to challenge a standard answer.

Good luck and let us know,

LL
 
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Ratatosk

Administrator
Staff member
DS has been on Orkambi for a year and a half. We still have him do 3, yes 3 vest and neb treatments a day. Same medications albuterol/atrovent nebs, pulmozyme..... His symptoms have been primarily digestive and sinus --- typical cf sinus disease ----since he was diagnosed at just a few days. He has his routine, it's a part of life. Our goal as parents is to keep his lungs healthy, instill good habits. His doctor at his last appointment was thrilled with his growth, was curious about his sinuses ---- he does breathe quieter and his nose runs, but didn't want to expose him to unnecessary radiation to perform a sinus ct just because he was curious.
 

SarahProcter

New member
Jricci, that looks like the one. Her doctor who did the nasal scraping and in vitro testing is one of the authors on the paper. Very interesting to see that Kalydeco can make things *worse* for some mutations! My kiddo seems to be on the far end of lucky as far as how significant a positive response she got. Thank you, God.
 

stephen

Super Moderator
For me it means reducing other CF treatments.

I did stop everything except Kalydeco for close to a year, but have since resumed some other drugs.

Within a short period after I started Kalydeco, it almost felt like I was "cured". After doing so well for about a year, I spoke to my doctor about cutting back or eliminating other CF treatments. While he didn’t recommend this, he had no objection to me giving it a try. He indicated that another patient like me, who also had D1152H, was taking Kalydeco off-label, and had lung damage but no apparent digestive issues, stopped everything but Kalydeco for a while. Eventually he resumed some of the treatments he had eliminated.

Since it felt like Kalydeco had completely eliminated the abnormal mucus from my lungs, I decided to try eliminating everything else. For about nine months there were no apparent negative effects. Then a slight cough and fever returned, and I needed a round of oral antibiotics. After another three months, oral antibiotics were again required

At that point I resumed using Cayston, and some other drugs at reduced frequency. This compromise appears to be working - for me.

So while Kalydeco may have eliminated the abnormal mucus from my lungs and my cough, it appears that my lungs are still susceptible to infections. This is probably due to the damage Kalydeco can’t repair.
 

stephen

Super Moderator
The article is also likely relevant to those with other Residual Function Mutations who are taking Kalydeco. It's a good description of my experiences with it.
 
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