Solo

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passé, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passé, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote></div>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote></div>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote></div>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote></div>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote></div>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passé, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote></div>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passé, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You've done a good job of explaining your theology to me and I can see your logic behind it, but i don't really see how that exposes a broken pillar in my faith. I also maintain that you have little understanding of what it is I believe, as evidenced by your repetition in your criticism of my faith.

For example, I said very clearly "Do not assume, however, that I or any other Christian am relying on the word of Paul, or any other man who wrote the Bible." To which you replied "why do you place your faith in what Paul, or in what any other fallible human, for that matter claims?" </end quote>

Well Mockingbird, you did indeed say that you don't rely on Paul's testimony, yet you quote him, as if you're reciting the Gettysburg Address. That just kinda strikes me a bit odd, I don't know. And a little FYI, it's not my theology, it's yours, I'm just dissecting it and tearing it to pieces. I don't have much experience building arguments against religion, but lately I've got in the mood. I've recently joined an atheist forum to see how well my arguments stand. You might indeed say I parrot my criticism of your faith, but you have yet to answer for this. IMO any person who steps out of their religious cocoon can see the obvious holes in Christianity. Right from the original sin story, Christianity falls apart. I mean if this God is all powerful he can hide evil far, far away where Adam will never get it, and if he's loving, would. It's pretty simple really. It's like you personally load a gun full of flesh-piercing bullets, and place it behind a nice looking toy. You then set your child in front of the toy and tell him not to go near it, and when he does, he shoots himself. Who's fault is it? Why it's yours for placing him in that hap hazardous situation. Like I said earlier, God could technically placed the evil knowledge on a distant planet light years from earth, but did the next best thing, placed it right in what Adam was to eat from.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Actually, God does speak to people frequently today. I Dared to Call Him Father by Bilquis Sheikh and Secret Believers by Brother Andrew both contain specific examples of Muslims who became Christian primarily because of visions from God. The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun gives examples of visions of instruction and prophecy. I mention these books as specific examples because they were all written recently, but throughout the history of the Christian Church there are countless examples of God speaking to people.

Furthermore, in the book of Job, it says, "Why do you complain against Him that he does not give an account of all His doings? Indeed God speaks once, or twice, yet no one notices it. In a dream, a vision of the night, when sound sleep falls upon men, while they slumber in their beds, then he opens the ears of men, and seals their instruction, that he may turn man aside from his conduct, and keep man from pride; He keeps back his soul from the pit, and his life from passing over into Sheol.
"Man is also chastened with pain on his bed, and with unceasing complaint in his bones; so that his life loathes bread, and his soul favorite food. his flesh wastes away from sight, and his bones which were not seen stick out. Then his soul draws near to the pit, and his life to those who bring death." Job 33:13-22

Elihu (the man who spoke this passage) talks about God communicating through visions and dreams, but he also says God can speak through discipline, that is to say, pain and suffering. I identify this a lot in my own testimony, and The Heavenly Man by brother Yun also gives many good examples. </end quote>

You see what I meant earlier? Mockingbird, you do not make any sense, I mean you allege that you hold no credibility in what Paul or anyone else for that matter writes, but you quote it like it's headline news. You cannot have it both ways here; you cannot quote someone just because they happened to babble something which fits into your agenda, but claim to " not rely on their words".
As per God speaking, well there might be a few authors who have testified this, but it means little to nothing. I mean unless God speaks to everyone in a testable, controlled environment, then it is baseless dogma. Of course there are countless examples in Christian history of God speaking to people, they must maintain their control over the sheeple. Thus far, with the threat of hell they have done a superb job.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>God could have given humans free will AND a natural tendency not to sin

I think He did. </end quote>

Then why o why do we have laws overriding God's will? I can use my free will to go out and buy a handgun and shoot up my entire block, but the law will lock me up as a psycho mass murderer.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>All humans have some kind of a conscience, a sense of right and wrong. A person does not have to be a Christian (meaning connected to God) to be a moral person.</end quote>

I agree with you 100%. But one's morality is totally subjunctive. Now matter what you care to admit, nobody gets their sense of morality from the bible, nobody. There isn't anything special about being a Christian, he cannot do anything that a non believer can't, so Mockingbird, what purpose does Christianity serve then? Does anyone reading this really think anyone wanted George Bush in the White House? It was Christians who put him there. He used religion to pull the whool over everyone's eyes and make you all believe he was a deliverer. You see if you believe in God by default you are considered a wholesome individual, simply because you are in with God, and nobody would vote against God.
I simply hate the fact that some people put the will of an invisible being before actual people. I personally act morally because it's the right thing to do, whereas some, not all, Christians only do so to not awaken God's wrath. Which is better? See everyday there is numerous murders, rapes and other horrors. Atheists as well as Christians perpetrate these; but some Christians just find a way to justify them with their religion. For example, I believe that lady is Yates, who drowned her kids and she claimed God told her too.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Furthermore, I see many people in this world with a yearning for God, whether they want to admit it or not. </end quote>

Somehow I don't believe this statement. The concept of God IMO is simply a man-made ghost story which people cling to like a crutch because they are afraid to accept reality. If people wish to believe in an ancient, passé, genocidal book and waste their lives chasing ghosts, then that's fine with me. Whatever, to each his own, but then they are the ones with the problem, not I.
The reason you say some yearn for God, is because there is safety in numbers. Christianity claims about 2 billion adherents, and since so many believe it, most people will automatically think that they can't all be wrong.



<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, I'm sure you have other criticisms of Christianity besides creation. In order to keep the discussion interesting I suggest we move on to the next pillar. </end quote>

Well since you seem so ansy to get this disussion going further, I posit the idea of hell as the Achilles Heel of Christianity. Please Mockingbird, justify how anybody deserves to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. And since you love quoting the bible, here's a verse that struck my fancy:

Mark 16:16
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not will be condemned."

Your very own savior said this, surely you would not call Jesus a liar. Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?

Mockingbird, thus far you have done a commendable job at sticking up for your faith, I congratulate you.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

 

[Mockingbird]

<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

 

[Mockingbird]

<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

 

[Mockingbird]

<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

 

[Mockingbird]

<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

 

[Mockingbird]

<i>Do you believe then that unbaptized people deserve to be tortured forever?</i>

I believe that I deserve to go to hell. Yes, I believe that I deserve to be physically and mentally tortured forever and ever. Just because I am baptized and a Christian does not mean I deserve to go to heaven any more than you do.

Now, the baptism we are talking about here is not meaning the mere baptism of water. As John the Baptist said, "I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of his sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Luke 3:16. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is what is required.

Here is another quote from Jesus: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Matthew 7:21. Now, this quote seems to be in direct contradiction with the quote from Mark, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved," as well as many other passages in the bible (e.g. Romans 10:13, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved).

How, then, are we saved from hell? Is it by faith in God, or by accomplishing His will? It is by the faith in God which results in accomplishing His will. As it says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10.

Now, we both agree everyone has some sort of moral center. However, you said each person's morality is subjective (which I also agree). So, if morality is subjective, how do I know what is moral according to God (righteousness) and what is only moral according to man? Or in other words, if only he who does the will of God will enter into heaven, than how do I know what the will of God is?

Let's make it even more difficult to enter into heaven. Jesus said anyone who hates another person in his heart is guilty before God of murder. Anyone who lusts after another person in his heart is guilty before God of adultery. Therefore, it is not enough that my actions follow the will of God, but I must follow the will of God with my entire heart. There has only been one man who was able to do this, and that was Jesus Christ.

Since Jesus Christ was the only man able to do it, and because it is His desire we should be saved, He has provided for us His Spirit. So, he who believes and is baptized will be saved, for in believing and being baptized he receives the Spirit of God which is able to do the will of God.

However, if I have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean I deserve to be saved does it? Certainly not, for I was not the one who provided the Spirit, and I am not responsible for accomplishing the will of God but it is the Spirit within me who accomplishes. Therefore salvation is not given because I have earned it, but rather it is the free gift of God because of His love for me.

However, we haven't really answered the original question; why do I deserve to go to hell? What could I have possibly done that would warrant an eternity of physical and mental torture? However, the very question is flawed, for it asks "what could I have possibly <i>done</i>?" We do not receive condemnation based on what we have done, but rather on what we are doing and will continue to do. As it says, "The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness." Ezekiel 33:12. A sinner deserves to go to hell for eternity because he is going to continue in sin for eternity.

 

[Solo]

Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

 

[Solo]

Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

 

[Solo]

Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

 

[Solo]

Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

 

[Solo]

Well Mockingbird the way I see it is God has the ability to forgive EVERYONE of their sins and let them enter the kingdom of heaven, but it just seems odd to me that you must jump through hoolahoops (get dunked in water) in order to appease God. The whole baptism thingie is kinda irrelevant.
It freaks me out when I hear people say "I deserve to go to hell" What?????? God is omniscient, meaning he knows everything that has ever been and everything that ever will be. So if you sin, he knows that you will do this, and as a result, cast you into the lake of fire for eternity. It's kinda like stealing a 3 Musketeers bar and getting a life sentence in jail for it.<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Nobody deserves to be tortured eternally, nobody. The average human life is what like 75 years. Now I think a human baby learns right from wrong around age 5, give or take a little. Now that's 70 years one can do evil or good actions, that's it, then they're dead. Does it seem fair that they're condemned to swim in a lake of fire for eternity then?

Now as Genesis states, God made all animals. So not only did a compassionate God make humans that have the ability to choose evil, but animals as well, as the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to do something which God defines as a "sin." He punishes us for choosing what he made available as a choice. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if God had done the responsible thing and secured the knowledge of evil far off on some other planet where Adam could never reach it. So there is only 1 conclusion: evil was meant for us. The bottom line is there would be no such thing as "sin" if God had not wanted it to exist.

Now think of the threat of hell, which Christianity utilizes excellently I might add, like so. Suppose you are armed with a gun and go into a bank. You walk up to the teller and demand money. She gives it to you. Do you actually think she's giving it to you because she wants to? No, it's most likely because you are armed and she doesn't want to be harmed. Now if you would go into the same bank without any weapons and demand money, what do you think will happen? Same result? Not likely, in fact, I can guarantee that either you'll be arrested or just laughed at. Now my point is Christianity crumbles without the threat of hell. Satan is the churches best friend. There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?

Mockingbird, I'm really sorry to hear that you are conditioned to think that you deserve to be tortured forever. Eternal torture is just plain sadistic, and serves no purpose other then divine retribution. Mockingbird, you have CF right? Then being a fellow Cf'r, we are in a struggle in this life. So do you think it's fair that we are punished in the next life as well?

 

[Mockingbird]

Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

 

[Mockingbird]

Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

 

[Mockingbird]

Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

 

[Mockingbird]

Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?

 

[Mockingbird]

Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it.

From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just.



<i>There must be a punishment set in place for not following their brand of God, after all, if there is no punishment, why would anyone choose to follow it?</i>

In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14.


Anyway, is there anything else you have?