Solo

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ¿Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ¿Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote></div>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote></div>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ¿Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote></div>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote></div>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ¿Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Once again, i can see the logic behind your theology, but your theology is not what I believe. From your response, it is clear to me that either you did not read what I wrote, or you did not understand a word of it. </end quote>

O I read what you wrote, but how else do you suppose I respond to parroting scripture? You seem to think I do not understand simply because I have a differing viewpoint on it, which is a blatant falsehood, as you are a perfect example of the nature of Christianity, they seem to believe that you have to be "special" to understand the bible. As their Preachers spout the messages which further enforce their beliefs, opposed to eye-opening, bloody ones that are rampant throughout the bible. The truth is the bible was written by mere men, not a God, and has been translated dozens of times with it's message distorted. After all, doesn't it sound kinda comical that some supernatural God swooped down to earth and whispered in the ears of a bunch of ancient tribals, which by the way, perverted his word?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>From your concept of sin and hell, yes I can see why that would be unfair. However, from my concept of sin and hell it is perfectly fair and just. </end quote>

Really? Well I suppose if you have the ability to twist yourself through a corkscrew without bending then you would. Anyway you slice is, infinite punishment for crimes committed in a finite lifetime is anything but just and fair. I really can't fathom how you can think hell is fair. God created everything, including hell, right? Humans choose by using their free will, which God gave us, to go to hell, right? It's a pretty idea simple actually, God provided us the option to choose to do evil. Without free will there is no threat of hell. Sure we'll all be basically robots, but we'll all do exactly as God wants then, and we'd all go to heaven. But introducing free will means introducing the option of choosing to do evil, thus going to hell. ¿Entiende?


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>In my experience, the faith which comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power. Rather it is the faith which comes from the new life we recieve in Christ that endures. As it says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living" Matthew 22:32. Heaven and hell may be useful for getting people in the door, but if that's all there was to Christianity, it would have failed a long time ago. "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Hebrews 5:13-14. </end quote>

When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church. Looking back I'd guess the only reasons I believed was because of adults telling me. I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking. The idea of death is terrifying, and especially the idea of suffering after you die is a horrible thought. The reason why I held onto that belief, wasn't because it was likely, but I remember always getting a warm, fuzzy feeling in the belief that there was a magical man in the clouds watching me. You are correct though, heaven and hell are very useful for getting people into the fold, but do not underrate the staying power. How many people look forward to seeing dead relatives again, walking and talking with Jesus? Christianity preys on easy pickens. People that are wheelchair bound, of course they are gonna dream about walking again. The poor, the sick, the lonely. It plays off guilt, you can murder whoever or how many you wish, but at the end if you give your life to Christ, you are forgiven. But the main tenet of the Christian faith is the idea of eternal punishement, worship me or else you will burn, suffer, and burn some more... forever.
As a Christian Mockingbird, I want to ask you, (now no offense, I'm just trying to make a point here.) if you have children, what could they possibly do that would warrant you into throwing them into a fireplace to burn? Well if God is loving and compassionate, what justification can he possibly have to throw his own children, us, into a lake of fire? If God truly loved us, he would redeem all of us, not throw us away and reboot, or he would not create us at all then. Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Anyway, is there anything else you have?</end quote>

Mockingbird, you haven't addressed most of my inquiry's in this thread to begin with. If I were you I would worry about finishing what's on my plate before I ask for more. For starters, please offer an explanation why someone such as myself with CF who struggles everyday in this life somehow deserves to be punished in the next life? If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others. Actually, the worst thing I have done in my life is driving intoxicated. I know it doesn't quite rank up there with stoning someone because they picked up a stick on the Sabbath, but not everyone can be "loving." And another point you failed to address or ignored, since Jesus had free will and didn't sin, what excuse does God have not to instill in us the tendency not to sin, while still having the option to do so? Angels had free will also.
I want to touch on an issue I forgot last time.
As per the will of God, I wouldn't even worry about that. I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow. Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind? If God has a perfect, divine plan in place, don't you think it's rather narcissistic to ask God to alter his plan for YOU? If I were you Mockingbird, I wouldn't worry about "acting" good to make God happy, there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven anyway. If this is the case you would have wasted your entire existence bending over backwards just to appease a God who obviously does nothing in the here and now. I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense. We have enough to worry about with the everyday stresses of life, and especially with this chronic illness we have, why add an undetectable, ruthless God to the equation?

 

[Mockingbird]

You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

 

[Mockingbird]

You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

 

[Mockingbird]

You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

 

[Mockingbird]

You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.

<i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>

So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?

<i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>

So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?

<i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>

I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.

<i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>

Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.

Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.

Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.

However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.

<i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>

There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.

Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.

Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.

Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.

<i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>

This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.

By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.

However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

 

[Mockingbird]

You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by <i>previous</i> posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up.
<br />
<br /><i>I soon realized that what I had wasn't faith, it was just wishful thinking</i>
<br />
<br />So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power?
<br />
<br /><i>I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's, not having to worry about if God is gonna be upset and throw a lightning bolt at you or any other such nonsense.</i>
<br />
<br />So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct?
<br />
<br /><i>If there is any kind of justice after we die I really don't see how I'm considered "bad" compared to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and others.</i>
<br />
<br />I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus.
<br />
<br /><i>Why waste your time praying as if to change God's mind?</i>
<br />
<br />Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for. As it says, "You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" James 4:3-5. And God desires the Spirit to dwell in us so that we can pray according to His will; as it says, "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:26-27.
<br />
<br />Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8.
<br />
<br />Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God.
<br />
<br />However, because I bring everything before God, I don't always pray according to His will. This doesn't make me or anyone else narcissistic. It is not wrong to present our hopes and dreams before God, as long as we understand His ways are higher than our ways and our faith does not depend on him saying "yes" to our every whim. In fact, I have confidence in bringing my every thought before God, for I know He will remain faithful to what is ultimately best for me, and not forsake me for prayers that may be petty or foolish.
<br />
<br /><i>there's no guarantee that he'll send you to heaven</i>
<br />
<br />There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16.
<br />
<br />Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13.
<br />
<br />Or as it also says, "Who can separate us from the love of Christ?" Romans 8:35. For the love of Christ does not depend on anything else besides the faithfulness of Christ, and we know that Christ is faithful to the end. Therefore, when Jesus says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved," I know He is telling the truth.
<br />
<br />Furthermore, I know this is the word of Christ, and not the fabrication of man for the reason I have already outlined above.
<br />
<br /><i>I mean c'mon a God who sends animals to devour kids because of the petty undertaking of making fun of one of his prophet's baldness is not a model for morality that I'd care to follow.</i>
<br />
<br />This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24
<br />
<br />Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.
<br />
<br />First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.
<br />
<br />However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"
<br />
<br />Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22.
<br />
<br />By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event.
<br />
<br />However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote></div>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote></div>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote></div>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote></div>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote></div>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote></div>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote></div>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote></div>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote></div>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote></div>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote></div>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote></div>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote>

Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote>

Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote>

C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.

If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.

But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.

Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?

Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote>

You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.

My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote>

Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.

For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote>

Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."


But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.


<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote>

Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote>

Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.

Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.

Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote>

Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.




<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24

Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.

First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.

However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"

Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote>

I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote>

Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote>

I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?

Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.

 

[Solo]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>You say I've ignored your inquiries, but I say you're ignoring my answers. Most of the questions you ask have already been answered by previous posts. I have absolutely no desire to start arguing in circles, so I have determined not to repeat myself. If it seems to you there is a question that I am ignoring, it is because I feel I have already answered it. You may not find my answers acceptable, but that's okay. It was never my intention to try to convert you or make you understand with the arguments I am presenting; only the Holy Spirit can do that (for which I am praying for you). I merely saw this as an opportunity to present the Christian doctrine for those who do have faith yet may have some of the same questions as you. When I quote the Bible, it is not to somehow try to solidify my argument before your eyes, but rather to indicate my sources, to show I am not just making this stuff up. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Mockingbird, I'm growing pretty fatigued of this whole drawn out argument here, a message board for a chronic illness is definitely not the opportune environment for this, but it is fun mental masturbation nontheless. You have done well; made me think-I like that. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">But I think we both can agree that one of us is either completely right or one of us is completely wrong. And either Christianity is right, and in turn, the other hundreds of religions are incorrect by default, or atheism is right, and none of the religions, which were all synthetic creations, are wrong. Mockingbird, an adherent to Islam firmly believes Jesus was simply a man, as Mohammed himself said, how can you be so sure he is wrong and you are right? What if both of you are wrong and Poseidon is our God? If so, I think he'd be a tad bit upset for adulating a false God your entire life. Mockingbird, you are nearly as much an atheist as I; afterall surely you don't believe in the other thousands of Gods. As soon as you could figure why you don't believe those, you can gather why I don't believe in yours.
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So, you admit that you've never actually had faith, right? Also, doesn't your own testimony only goes toward proving my point that the "faith" that comes from fear of hell has absolutely no staying power? </end quote>
<br />
<br />Faith is believing what you know ain't so.-Mark Twain. With that quote, faith through the threat of hell absolutely has staying power. Like I said, a Christian teeter-tottering on their faith, has the mental picture of eternal torture in the back of their heads acting as a deterrent not to leave the fold. As to me personally, I happen to think faith is basically belief without true understanding, so you can say I believed and did not understand why- so yes, in a way what I had was faith. But if you define faith as knowledge, then no, I didn't have faith.
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So then, contrary to what you've said before, you appreciate the free will God has given you. Is that correct? </end quote>
<br />
<br />C'mon Mock, if a perfect God exists, not even he can have free will. If he knows everything past, present and future, he therefore would know what he's gonna decide to do, hence cannot freely decide to do anything then what he has mapped out. He's trapped in his own omniscience. If God knows for an absolute fact that he will do "X" tonight, he must, he cannot do otherwise or else he has disproved omniscience.
<br />
<br />If God is omniscient, there are no choices if our outcome is known with 100% certainty. Now imagine for a sec that you're reading a book. Now those characters sure seem like they have free will, but they must do exactly as the author who writes the book decides. Now in the grand scheme of things, we are just powerless actors acting out a book (living this life), and the author of our book (God) has already decided how our story will unfold.
<br />
<br />But as I said if God cares about humans, and knows all, he could not give us free will. It's only logical. If God knows that Hitler used his free will to torture and kill millions of Jews, could he have chosen to do otherwise? Why would a loving, compassionate God lay the option on the table for Hitler to choose to murder Jews? So if you believe in God, Hitler can not be held responsible for doing exactly as God knows he will do. Hitler was utilizing his God given free will to kill. He chose to do what God made available as a choice. If God didn't want his chosen people fried like marshmallows, he would've intervened. I thank my lucky stars that US law overrides your God's will.
<br />
<br />Mockingbird a few questions. Did God create us? Do we have the ability to choose? Do we go to hell as a result of choosing incorrectly?
<br />
<br />Now I'm sure you remember 9/11 vividly, right? Those poor, innocent victims in the Twin Towers were not using their free will to die; they didn't get burned by jet fumes on purpose. The skyjackers chose, out of their own free will, to crash planes into those buildings. The way I see it is God only gives free will to evil people.
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I see it this way; I don't see how I could ever be considered good compared to the likes of Jesus. </end quote>
<br />
<br />You may have a point there, but if people followed the OT, they'd be criminals; if they all adhered to Jesus' teachings, they'd be batshit insane. He wants followers to leave their families to follow a perfect stranger, he condemns money, if someone robs you of your wallet, Jesus seems to think you should give him your shoes too. Jesus thinks if someone forces you to walk 2 miles, walk 5 with him. Be sure to be careful about finding someone attractive, especially if you are already married. If not, be sure to pluck your eye out. Be sure not to make any plans, go shopping, buy clothes, nada. God will feed you. And most of all if you really are a Christian, make absolute certain that you believe that an innocent carpenter bought your way into heaven by being tortured to death.
<br />
<br />My personal belief on the Jesus issue is this. Nowadays we have various psychiatric drugs that can successfully treat these illnesses. Back in NT times, of course there were no remedies, that's why we see "possessions" and the like. I firmly believe if Jesus was on a course of Paxil or Zoloff we would not have heard even a peep about him, the same thing can be said about the people who claimed to see miracles. I mean, I think it was Jonah, who claimed he was swallowed by a whale and staid alive in its stomach and spit out 3 days later. Ha, if an actual human were to be devoured by a fish of that size it's gastric juices would surely make short work of any human.
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Well, if your motivation in praying is to change the will of God, you're not going to get what you're asking for.</end quote>
<br />
<br />Then what is the purpose of prayer? If we all pray to see someone get well, but God's will is that this person suffers, then isn't it useless trying to coerce God? In the gospels Jesus says that whatever you pray for, you will be given. He claims that if you pray to move a mountain it will be done. Last time I checked, not even our highest powered bulldozers can move Mount Everest. You expect me to believe a Christian can? Please don't tiptoe around this with a fancy excuse, no Christian can, therefore we can come to a few conclusions: Jesus was a phony, a liar. Jesus never existed. Jesus was mentally unstable. I'd wager on the last one.
<br />
<br />For some mental acrobatics here, let's say theres 2 devout Christians on opposing basketball teams. They each pray to God that their team will be the victor. Now surely you agree that there can only be 1 winner in a basketball game, right? What do you suppose your God would do? Ignore both of their prayers because they are selfish? But if that's the case, it contradicts what Jesus says that WATEVER you ask for in prayer you will be given, so what's the deal?
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now then, what is the purpose of prayer? For it says, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for the suppose they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him." Matthew 6:7-8. If God knows what we need before we ask Him, then why should we ask? It is for our benefit, to acknowledge to ourselves our need, and so that we may see more clearly when our prayers are answered, thus deepening our relationship with God. "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." James 4:8. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Jeremiah 7:16 God claims there's people that you shouldn't pray for, and if you do, he won't listen.
<br />"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you."
<br />
<br />
<br />But I don't necessarily think the author's of the bible were lying. The same way Stan Lee wasn't lying when he wrote Spiderman. Fiction writers write fiction, period.
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Therefore, when I am frustrated, when I am angry, when I am sorrowful, when I am joyful, when I am at peace, in anything I might be going through, I bring it before God. For when we have a close relationship with someone on this earth, we have a desire to commune with them. So it is with God. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Yes but when we have a close relationship with someone on earth, it's custom for that person to reciprocate at some time. If talking to yourself puts you at ease, who am I to take that away? I know a child finds comfort in his imaginary friends, but at some time they grow out of it.
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>There is actually, The very scripture you yourself posted says, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Ok, now think back to the Holocaust. I'd bet most of those people weren't baptized and didn't accept Jesus as their savior. So how that message dictates, those people, after being seriously maltreated, tortured, and burned to death by the Nazis, will end up in hell. I ask you, doesn't that in itself sound kind of absurd to you? Off the top of my head I can't think of a single loophole that allows people who don't believe in Jesus salvation.
<br />
<br />Now my friend very recently passed away from Cancer. He was in tremendous pain the last 3 years. When I was in the hospital, he was also, and he told me he doesn't buy into the God thing. Now in his life, he was not able to live an ordinary life, it was a constant struggle. Does it make any kind of sense for God to punish him in the afterlife just because he made the honest mistake of not believing in him, despite the overwhelming lack of evidence? If God really cared and honestly wanted everyone to believe, he could end this now and just show up and perform a miracle.
<br />
<br />Mockingbird, what is the purpose of living life, there's only 2 real options according to your doctrine. Go to heaven or go to hell. Now according to Jesus, you must at least believe in him right? Now there's over a billion Muslims occupying this planet. Surely you agree that they don't believe Jesus was divine. Surely a loving God wouldn't condemn 1 billion people to hell? Haha, our life has the feel of an American Gladiator game, it's every man for themselves.
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Now, you might say, how do I know I can trust the promise of God? It says in Malachi 3:6, "For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." The entire Old Testament is about this very thing, of Israel continually breaking their covenant with God, and despising and rejecting Him; yet God keeping His promises toward Israel which He made to them since before the very formation of their nation. As it says, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 2:13. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Now according to your cult's handbook you cannot trust God. Jeremiah 20:7:
<br />O LORD, you deceived [a] me, and I was deceived ;
<br /> you overpowered me and prevailed.
<br /> I am ridiculed all day long;
<br /> everyone mocks me.
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This comes from the story of Elisha: "Then when Elisha went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!' When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24
<br />
<br />Now, there are a couple ways to interpret this.
<br />
<br />First, in these times, a full head of hair was seen as a sign of strength and vigor. By calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been expressing that he (and by extension, God) had no power.
<br />
<br />However, it was also a common practice among the pagans of the area to shave their heads when mourning the loss of a loved one. Do you know what had happened to Elisha just before this event took place? Elijah, his mentor and predecessor had been taken into heaven. So, by calling Elisha "baldhead" the youths may have been maliciously referring to the death of Elijah, and telling Elisha to go up after him. Or in other words, "Elijah died and we hated him; we hate you, too, Elisha, so why don't you die as well?"
<br />
<br />Personally, I favor the latter interpretation. Of course, in either case, it was unlikely Elisha actually had a bald head, since it was an unusual occurrence among the ancient jews, and because God had forbidden His people from shaving their heads for the dead in the Law of Moses. In fact, God said something else interesting in the Law pertaining to this event: "If, then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. I will let loose among you wild beasts, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted." Leviticus 26:21-22. </end quote>
<br />
<br />I find it somewhat troubling that you seem fine with the terrible deaths of 42 children by your God. Now if any human let loose, on purpose, 2 bears with the intention of killing 42 kids, he would surely be arrested. It speaks volumes that you come up with all these excuses in an attempt to vindicate God of all his mass murders.
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>By the way, do you know what 6 times 7 is? 42, the exact number of youths who were killed by the bears. If God was increasing seven times according to their sins, then it would seem they had other sins in their lives besides this one event. </end quote>
<br />
<br />Well I think "sins" are basically one's own ideas of morality and lifestyle, which if God created us, provided. So how are we blamed for choosing something which he provided?
<br />
<br /><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>However, allow me to use a human argument. You yourself said, "Let's say you are newly pregnant, and you know for an absolute fact that your baby will grow up to kill billions of people. Wouldn't only be right to get an abortion, not have the kid at all?" Now, this is pure speculation, but lets say God knew these youths would never amount to any good in their lives. 42 is a pretty large number; maybe they were the equivalent to a gang or something. Point is, why are you condemning God for doing essentially the very thing you claim to be righteous?</end quote>
<br />
<br />I think you are a little confused here. You seem to imply that abortion is killing, which I happen to strongly disagree with, and so does your God for that matter. I have never condoned the killing of a hamster, let alone 42 kids. If God knew that he'd eventually have to kill these kids for sinning, would'nt it have been more logical to not create them in the first place? Just like my example, if a mother could see into the future, saw that her child would grow up and kill billions, don't you think it more logical to utilize science and abort the fetus, thereby avoiding billions of deaths?
<br />
<br />Like I said Mockingbird, it's obvious neither of us will budge in our stance. Now if Christianity is in some way right, I will burn forever, regardless of if I feel it is right or wrong. I'm willing to accept that I may be wrong, but it's also possible that I may not be. After all, there are hundreds of religions out there, with thousands of sects in each. Why would a loving God place the truth in just 1 sect, in the process, condemning all others to hell? How can you be sure you are following the right religion? Unless you dabbed your fingers in every one of them, and deducted that their God is a lie, I really don't see how you can be so sure that Christianity is valid.
<br />

 

[Mockingbird]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

 

[Mockingbird]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

 

[Mockingbird]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote></div>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

 

[Mockingbird]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote>

That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.

I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.

This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.

Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.

Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.

You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.

 

[Mockingbird]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>How can you be sure you are following the right religion?</end quote>
<br />
<br />That's perfectly simple. The Spirit of God resides within me and testifies to the truth. This is the faith that saves; the faith which comes from God.
<br />
<br />I have two more scriptures to post and then I'm done. You say you're tiring of this discussion, and now that I'm off IV's I don't have as much free time.
<br />
<br />This is the most important point I have to make in this discussion:
<br />
<br />"For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." Romans 8:14-15.
<br />
<br />Now, what Paul is talking about here is trying to live up to God's expectations (or if you prefer, the expectations of religion), and failing and feeling guilty about it. I believe you were expressing the same thing when you said, "When I was young I remember thinking distinctly that I must be a bad person because I didn't want to go to church." Now, if this is the limit of your experience of Christianity, then you have not experienced the fullness of Christ; the faith that I am talking about.
<br />
<br />Paul continues: "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set your free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4.
<br />
<br />You said to me: "I would just do exactly as your heart desires; it's invigorating, it feels like a weights been lifted off your shoulder's," but what you don't realize is that I AM doing exactly as my heart desires. God has given me a new heart which has a desire to please Him. I don't go to church because I'm expected to, or I think I have to; I belong to the church because it is enjoyable to me. I do not abstain from sin out of a sense of guilt or shame, but I abstain because the pleasure I find in living for God is so much better than the sinful pleasures in which I once lived. For when i enjoy the things of this world as God intended them to be enjoyed, I find them far more fulfilling and my desire is satisfied greater than I have ever known.