stomach aches

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Can you ask the toolset a belly X-ray so you do t end up on re again? Whenever we have months of issues they check that to make sure no back up. I don't understand why they wouldn't do that given circumstances...we get the script faxed to our local imaging center and are in and out when we need. They don't do often but again if nothing seems to help they need to make sure what's going on and not invasive at all.
The boost kids essential we receive fom walgreens infusion but our hospital home medical services could provide. It is expensive but luckily our insurance covers and given her weight loss it would seem a medical necessity but I don't know how Canada works. This is the product but important don't get the fiber one because that can cause backups!http://www.nestlenutritionstore.com...D-ESSENTIALS-1-5-WITH-FIBER.html#.VIIzu4y9KK0. Prevacid and Prilosac work the same way. Zantac works differently. Good luck!
 

AH11201

New member
If you're looking for a substitute for dairy products, try coconut oil / milk / butter. Especially the butter—it's very creamy and completely addictive. I would recommend cutting out gluten first though (and cutting down on processed stuff in general), because that's more likely to be the culprit. If you do want to try cutting dairy, you can leave in butter at first because there's only a little of the milk proteins / sugars that can cause a reaction.

Lately I've been taking Betaine HCL tablets, and I think they've been working for me because my biggest issue is bloating (I tested positive for SIBO recently). I used to take Zantac and Prevacid (not at the same time though), but I stopped that a while ago and then learned that might actually be a bad thing. Take a look at this page: http://balancedbites.com/2012/01/why-you-want-more-stomach-acid-not-less.html. I'm sure that because of how serious this case seems it won't have a profound effect, but you could try.

I know the GI docs recommend PPI's, but I've come to the disappointing realization that there's a lot of misinformation and unknowns when it comes to CF-related GI issues. I've gone down the research rabbit hole and it's helped me, but many times when I bring up certain ideas or even legitimate, published papers, my doctors either don't know what I'm talking about or don't want to try anything out of the realm of their normal practice. I'm not saying you shouldn't trust your doctors—I love mine and respect her opinion on most things—but a healthy curiosity and skepticism can be your best friend.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
I' ll see what I can cut down, Natasha is a fussy eater. She does not like coconut. But I am interested in getting the butter, i can try tiny bits at first and see how it goes. Today has been good. I am also planning to do some research on Pubmed see what comes out. Thank for your ideas.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Hi, if she still has pain next week, I'll go have the xray done. They usually feel the belly and can tell but I don't think it's enough now. I'll see if I can get samples of the boost, ask the dietician, Natasha has never liked the supplements so I don't wanna get stuck with a whole box. It looks interesting though, worth trying. Let's hope 4 the best.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Diana, just a little question here. How is your DDs vitamin levels? I'm not nearly as familiar as your forum responders with your child's particilar set of problems. But when I see people thinking the enzymes aren't working right or trying to up them, I remember that part of the delicate balance is dependent on vitamin levels. Enzymes, reflux meds AND vitamins all work together . . . .without one, everything can be out of whack. Blessings.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
I just spoke with the dietician, she was saying everything is in the normal range except vit d which is quite low. She already takes extra 1000ui plus two aquadeks per day. She takes anti acid and domperidon for motility too. She is not at her max for enzymes yet. May it's something to look k at. Thanks.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
I pretty much suspected that. Not even sure why but the dang old fact of the matter is that one out of whack keeps all out of whack! Perhaps LittleLab or someone can help out on details of the interrelationship for that one, but as you already know, you need to get her Vitamin D levels up. I wonder how long that's been a problem for her? If vitamin supplements and dairy products (milk, yogurt, cheese) as well as meats don't seem to be enough to do it, how much time is she spending in the sun? 30 minutes a day outside is as good or better than a vitamin for most. If you decide to keep her on dairy, but she doesnt like supplements, try some good old Ovaltine at double dose in a glass of milk several times daily. It doesn't have a huge amount of D, but it has some and it keeps them drinking milk. Kids love the chocolate flavor, even if they otherwise hate milk. And frankly, the concentrated caloric load of some of the usual CF Supplements gives my little guy a horrible stomach ache and a long long painful stent in the bathroom. Does your dietician have any other suggestions? And I really wonder just how much that might be contributing to the stomach problems? I have come to understand that enzymes are reportedly not as effective if the vitamin levels are off or reflux is poorly controlled. It takes all three. I would think the idea is to make the enzymes shes getting more effective, rather than upping them and causing other problems. Perhaps other posters have some experience with this, or have some good suggestions for getting vitamin D levels up? We had that problem too, but resolved it by putting him on two vitamins - ADEK and Flintstones Complete (yup Flintstones - but only the Complete tablets, not gummies). I see you already have plenty of vitamin supplements, so I wonder why they're not working. Is her reflux well controlled? Will your doc let you split the dosage over the day to keep levels more stable?
I have one other potentially simplistic (so be cautious here and work only with the docs on this one!) rather than simple thought. When I have spent tons of time trying to fix a problem, constantly adding new drugs, new therapies, etc, all in response to snowballing problems, I sometimes find that taking it back to basics works better. Sometimes the proposed solutions only complicate the problems. We tend to throw new drugs and therapies on top of problems created by previous drugs and therapies, rather than eliminating the cause. It can actually make it harder to figure out the original problem.
Remember, I am NOT a doctor. I believe in them and their advice. They want to help and use all their knowledge and experience to give you the help you need. And CF is dang complicated. I hope my thoughts help lead you to help your docs find a solution and make your baby better again!
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and how things progress. Blessings.
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
i didn't know vit were linked to digestion. It's been up and down, never stable since a couple of years. But she's always in the lower end with all vitamins. She does like cheese a lot and has hot chocolate everyday. I am superscared now to add the extra butter or oil as she might have malabsorption. She had tummy ache this morning too but was able to go to school. There was a smell so I assume something was not digested. It seems hard to get her back on track. I agree with you with going back and find the cause rather than short term answers.
As far as vit d, would you know if the liquid form more easily absorbed?
Thanks for your help.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Diane, it does sound like the enzymes are just not totally effective yet. Has, odor, belly aches, low vitamins (I.e. not getting enough nutrition from her food). Are you comfortable with your dietician? Does s/he have suggestions? They should be working with you until the nutritional needs and vitamin levels are stable and appropriate. Since she's not at max dosage yet, let the dietician tweek it and see how she responds, working on vitamin levels at the same time. Does your daughter eat large amounts? Usually hungry? I always know it's time to up the dosage when my son seems to be eating everything but the wallpaper....I'm not sure which form of D works best, but your dietician should. If you are not happy with them, see if there is another available!
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Let me just add this bit as an obvious fact that we can lose sight of in the quest for good digestion thru science. A pancreatic insufficient CFer who doesn't take enzymes will have gas, belly pain, fatty stools that float instead of sink, cramping, hunger and poor weight gain. Once you introduce adequate enzymes, especially with good reflux control and vitamins, the vast majority should experience less bulky stools, considerable relief of stomach pain, less gas, less hunger, greater weight gain with less food. If you're not experiencing relief, I would look at these three basics first with a good dietician and if necessary a good GI doc. There are different brands of enzymes to try once you've reached the max dosage on yours. There are different antacids and they can be split over the day to keep levels even. And there are different supplements to help you get your vitamin levels up.
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Vitamin B's aid in digestion and is a big reason large doses are in vitamins aimed at CFers. I'm chronically low in D3 and had been taking a 10,000 IU D3 over and above what's in my AquADEK and such for years. My brand new GI doctor ordered a CBC, metabolic panel and a vitamin assay.

The test was predictable except my D3. I was toxic! When he first told me I had vitamin D poisoning, I corrected what had to be a low value. Nope, a portion of my abdominal misery was self inflicted. D3 toxicity has symptoms familiar to us, abdominal pain, gas, diarrhea and nausea. No wonder I hadn't noticed but something has changed.

Having been discouraged from a pancreatectomy, for the moment, I've been trying to reduce my abdominal pain. I get the "tummy aches" that are far more than what others would describe in those words. Gut shot, eating ground glass, hit by a truck and drug through a knot hole, backwards is rather dramatic for a daily routine but sometimes it just saps all the fun out of the thrill of living.

In researching the pancreatectomy I learned a lot about reducing abdominal dysfunction. My stools had changed from hard constipation to an adhesive paste that caused a lot of painful soft blockages called Distal Intestinal Obstruction Syndrome or DIOS. For the last six months, I've been increasing my enzyme dosage. I have doubled my Creon and doubled it almost again. Two benefits have been realized by doing this. My stools are semi-formed at the beginning and I am gaining weight with no change in my diet. WOW! It also explains why my vitamin D poisoning happened. There's no lack of vitamin D in my diet and until this recent test, my vitamin panels were normal to a little low.

In a recent post topic on muscle loss, the inadequacy of enzyme treatment compared to a healthy GI tract underscores how challenging all this is. A friend recently reminded me of how critical everything involved with digestion can be. Her grandfather was missing his large bowel and she was part of his care giving team. They had an industrial fan in the bathroom because food that hasn't been treated to benefit of a large bowel redefines stinky.

My CF father quietly dealt with Crone's disease and the same nasty gastritis, GERD and IBS many of us know all too well. He took his meals and medicines by the clock. Like Robert Frost's Caldwell, the banker, his routine was to the minute. 12 minutes before each meal he'd take his enzyme pills and breakfast, lunch and dinner were at 5:30 am, noon and 5:30 pm, plus or minus a minute. Although this was a solution that fit his organized personality, enzymes weren't time release and it worked, for him.

There's no easy fix for anybody. The practice of reinforcing a schedule for your daily life can help the body adapt to a regular schedule for anticipating food, performing the best digestion it can and hopefully eliminating on a schedule. Having said this it is beyond me to be so organized.

I believe that maldigestion's symptoms are obvious and overwhelming. Indicators that point towards proper digestion are reduction in fecal volume, formed, dense stools and something less nauseating and painful instead of an hour of drooling nausea and massaging our distended and bloated bellies.

Feel better,

LL
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Thanks for the explanation LittleLab. I had heard that Vitamin D toxicity could cause stomach pain, but what now confuses me is how you could be toxic - I.e. levels way too high - and still test out extremely low on D3. Did I understand that correctly?
 

LittleLab4CF

Super Moderator
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Historically I've had low D when tested. To fix this I began taking 10,000 IU of D3 which brought it up close to normal. Vitamins by definition can't be synthesized by the body so they must be in the foods we consume. Vitamins are either water soluble and don't require digestion in order to be absorbed or they are fat soluble vitamins and require digestion in order to be absorbed.

My enzyme regiment has not kept up with my deteriorating pancreas and maldigestion wasn't giving me enough A, D, E & K. A recent increase in my Creon, doubling it in about a six month period was enough digestion improvement to raise my D3 level to a toxic concentration! At least that's the working theory.

A doctor once asked why I took expensive AquADEK. He went on to say that I could take a multivitamin with a bite of oil rich food like chocolate and a Creon and save my money. It could work that way assuming that the Creon and vitamins intermix and digestion still yields the advertised vitamins in digestible form. I'm not sure that I would replace my AquADEK this way but the point is food digested well delivers plenty of vitamins, maldigestion is often diagnosed by checking for fat soluble vitamin levels.

I hope that clarifies what I meant to convey about my sudden D poisoning.

LL
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Thanks again LittleLab. That makes so much sense - testing low on Vitamins makes you wonder whether your enzymes are sufficient. In addition to the three month checks, the yearly checks at our CF Center add blood work to include testing the levels of A, D, E, and K as well as protein and glucose. I would hope that would be sufficient to catch rising D levels, especially after enzyme adjustments. I wonder if the two affected individuals in this thread might need enzyme adjustment. I am well aware that enzymes need adjusting as you grow - about once a year my growing little guy starts to eat everything he can get his hands on and I know that means its time to recalculate! But it didn't occur to me that pancreatic function is ever changing and might require adjustment as an adult too! I suppose the signals for that might include the usual problems with pancreatic insufficiency - cramping, belly pain, loose or bulky stool, gas, floating stools, increased hunger, etc? And that vitamin D toxicity can also potentially cause intense belly pain for those who increase their vitamins as they increase their enzymes. I wonder if all centers routinely check for vitamin levels. . . . .?
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Our CF Center does annual check, and then when DS Vitamin D level was slightly below normal range (our ped said they don't even treat if at the level of our sons), they added Vitamin D but had us retest level at 3 months. It was better but still at lower end of normal and way within normal level so they said safe to continue and retest at next annual. They didn't adjust enzymes last time (he had been at max) because at the time he was having no tummy issues. But he's always in general at the max. And he's gone from 12ish% weight to about 80% BMI, so with the enzymes at max (or near max) and weight gain, I don't think that's the issue (plus no floating/gressey stools), and no pain absent times when stools are reduced in # or become molasses like. At least that's current thinking.
 

Gammaw

Super Moderator
Sounds familiar AboveAll. Our guy is always at max enzymes for good control and he too tested at slighly low D levels although his enzymes were at max. That's when they added a simple Flintstone Complete to his ADEKs (which they no longer make!) which brought him up to normal D. He's stayed at normal D ever since, although we just had to increase his enzymes again. And he has been in the 80% range for BMI for many years now, despite being born at 3% with a MI. Are you sure you don't have my kiddo up there? He's less forthcoming these days (getting too big for sharing all that "personal icky stuff" with Mom). So I don't always know what his stools are like. He seems to go once or twice a day and it takes a while sometimes - like up to 30 minutes. Usually a bit stinky but not horrible, and not usually bulky, according to his reports. I suspect he gets a little constipated on occasion and sometimes very gassy with an uncomfortable stomach. I attribute that to the varying size and content of meals and snacks - and his occasional tendency to grab a snack without taking enzymes - "I forgot!". Really. So how did that work out for you? It really helps when they get older and more knowledgeable and observant about the relationship between their enzyme adherence and food intake. They start to see things I don't know about. Like "Mom! I was in the bathroom for all of gym today!". Oh no! That was sad! Did you skip your enzymes? "just for snack!". What was snack? "Joe had a pizza party after lunch for his birthday in the classroom!" ah . . . . . So what might have caused that do you think? He's actually learning the difference between needed a snack dosage and a meal dosage based on fat content. The things CFers learn at an early age . . . . .
 

Diana4Natasha

New member
Thanks a lot for enlightening us with your experience and advice. I am at home today, dealing with intense belly pain, I gave lots of laxatives and tried castor oil after speaking to my pharmacist. I am doing these things once a week now, there is seriously something wrong. Hope thay r able to do something. I am waiting for an answer from my cf team.
I will ask them to contact Dr Freidman in Boston, as they don't seem to have seen many cases like ours. Can't go to the hospital today as there is big snow storm, expecting 30cm!!
 
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