Stupid spirometer question

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
If a spirometer is properly working (sincroniced or whatever its called/spelled), is it possible for it to wrongly record a too high number based on a child's improper technique? I can see a low number being wrong or not an accurate assessment because the technique is wrong, but is it possible for a high number (that isn't repeatedable, because of youth and inability to consistently do a good technique), to be wrong or inaccurate based on technique? Or can you assume if there are 6 blows and one is high and the others all low, the high is the "correct" one and the lows are based on inconsistent/inaccurate technique?
Thanks!!
 

Melissa75

Administrator
Unless you accidentally changed the settings of age/sex/height between tests, I also can't see how a higher score could be an error. Lower scores -- yes -- from air leaking out the corners of your mouth, out your nose, uncoordinated or low effort, coughing midblow...

I tend to score lower on later tests because I work so hard and exhaust myself - maybe if your son's high score was the first, this is what was happening. Unless I haven't huff-coughed a bit before a test. Then I spend the first few tests clearing mucus, with bumpy looking flow curves, and my later tests can be better.

Is this a home spirometer? Can you have him try it again - new day new test?
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Thanks so much! That was what I thought. It is home spirometer and we are pratcising a few times a week. It was actually his 5 or 6 and last one when he got an "A" for technique (as opposed to D) so I was thrilled when it had great FEV values but then thought maybe it can be "wrong" if they do it wrong, so wanted to get some thoughts. My take is that it is because he doesn't have the technique done pat that they are all over the board, so we can't get a really good "baseline" but I figure if we do get these random great results and they can't be wrong, at least those random ones tell us that things are working well. Thoughts?
 

Printer

Active member
Three years ago, in clinic, I had an FEV1 that was in the high 90s, a number that I had not reached for 25 years, and a number that I have not reached since. So my answer is yes it can happen.

Bill
 

imported_Momto2

New member
Yes, it can happen, not sure how, but it has to me. I scored a 35, 37, 39, 41, and 43 on my blows. For some reason, the tech said that the 41 and 43 were invalid due to something that occurred during the test. Not sure what happened (next time I will ask!). This has happened before. They cant take the highest number sometimes.
 

ethan508

New member
My understanding is that the big hospital spirometers typically use a direct volume measurement so that a fake high is less likely. The only inaccuracy would be the volume measurement itself or any air leaks in the system (the tester's mouth, lips, and nose being part of that system).

Home spirometers use a flow meter and then derive volume. In addition to the problems of inaccurate measurement and leaks, the flow meter device also has to assume that the flow is moving in a laminar fashion (smooth-even flow) and then do some calculation to derive volume. However if you blow hard enough, or sporadically, or have an obstruction, then you can create a turbulent (chaotic) flow across the meter which causes the meter to calculate a poor reading.

I'm sure the home spirometer makers try to design everything so that it stays laminar (large pipe, smooth surfaces, training/feedback to help the user blow in a smooth fashion) but with the variability of a young users, and a constraint to make the device reasonably priced, you are probably going to get some inaccurate readings due to a turbulent test.

Below are my thoughts on the science behind it. I'm spit balling a little bit here and would love someone like LittleLab4CF to chime in as well.

With laminar flow you can easily predict the speed profile across the sensor (it looks a flat 3D parabola, with flow faster on the middle than at the edges of the pipe.) To better illustrate this, imagine water coming out of a garden hose at a nice smooth stream. You can fairly easily measure the speed of the water (with something as simple as a water wheel) and because you know what the flow profile is uniform and consistent. One you have the speed and cross section you can calculate the flow volume. [Speed (m/s) X Area (m^2) X duration (s) = Volume (m^3)]. Granted even with this method, you’ll need a flow sensor that is reasonable good at measuring flow speed (which doesn't come cheap). Additionally, air density, humidity, pressure, pipe materials, cross section, can all contribute in making the flow profile hard to control, highly variable, or just plain difficult to understand.

To illustrate turbulent flow, imagine water spraying out of a fire hose at full blast. With a spraying stream you can't assume any of the particles of water are moving at the same speed or direction, any single particle speed measurement reading will not be illustrative of the overall flow rate. But you meter will still measure some speed, run the laminar calculations, display a reading, but the reading will be inaccurate.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Thanks Ethan! That was a very he
pful explanation.

We we actually though got the kind the clinic uses off site so it does do a direct flow measurement and apparently the A meant that it was reproducible for three blows...still rcognizing there could be some issues s watching for longer term trends as he gets the process underway.
Thanks for all the helpful info though!

My understanding is that the big hospital spirometers typically use a direct volume measurement so that a fake high is less likely. The only inaccuracy would be the volume measurement itself or any air leaks in the system (the tester's mouth, lips, and nose being part of that system).

Home spirometers use a flow meter and then derive volume. In addition to the problems of inaccurate measurement and leaks, the flow meter device also has to assume that the flow is moving in a laminar fashion (smooth-even flow) and then do some calculation to derive volume. However if you blow hard enough, or sporadically, or have an obstruction, then you can create a turbulent (chaotic) flow across the meter which causes the meter to calculate a poor reading.

I'm sure the home spirometer makers try to design everything so that it stays laminar (large pipe, smooth surfaces, training/feedback to help the user blow in a smooth fashion) but with the variability of a young users, and a constraint to make the device reasonably priced, you are probably going to get some inaccurate readings due to a turbulent test.

Below are my thoughts on the science behind it. I'm spit balling a little bit here and would love someone like LittleLab4CF to chime in as well.

With laminar flow you can easily predict the speed profile across the sensor (it looks a flat 3D parabola, with flow faster on the middle than at the edges of the pipe.) To better illustrate this, imagine water coming out of a garden hose at a nice smooth stream. You can fairly easily measure the speed of the water (with something as simple as a water wheel) and because you know what the flow profile is uniform and consistent. One you have the speed and cross section you can calculate the flow volume. [Speed (m/s) X Area (m^2) X duration (s) = Volume (m^3)]. Granted even with this method, you’ll need a flow sensor that is reasonable good at measuring flow speed (which doesn't come cheap). Additionally, air density, humidity, pressure, pipe materials, cross section, can all contribute in making the flow profile hard to control, highly variable, or just plain difficult to understand.

To illustrate turbulent flow, imagine water spraying out of a fire hose at full blast. With a spraying stream you can't assume any of the particles of water are moving at the same speed or direction, any single particle speed measurement reading will not be illustrative of the overall flow rate. But you meter will still measure some speed, run the laminar calculations, display a reading, but the reading will be inaccurate.
 

ethan508

New member
Tracking a volume change while running a clock is just fundamentally easier than measuring flow directly. A direct flow measurement will be susceptible to turbulent flow issues. But I suppose some clinics use direct flow meters off site as they are more portable (and probably less expensive) than a volumetric spirometer. If direct flow meters reach a high quality and low cost point they will become more the norm. Realistically the turbulent flow issue is probably less than a 1% of the time problem so it isn't a big deal when you can take multiple readings relatively easily. You just have to know when to ignore a bad data point. If your bathroom scale gave you a wonky reading 1 in a 100 times, you wouldn't go out and buy a new scale, you wouldn't think you just gained 100 pounds, you'd just step off and step back on again to get a better reading.

I've ask several 'how does it work' questions when getting various biometrics, and have a great affinity for the doctors and technicians that can give me a good answer. I'd really expect a blank stare when asking the effects of turbulent flow on a PFT result. Most just expect the instruments to work and thanks to good engineers they do. Translating a biological, chemical, or mechanical input into a device and getting an accurate digital output is really one of the great wonders of modern medicine.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
Maybe I misunderstood their tech guy...they use ultrasound tech. To measure and it somehow doesn't get affected by turbulence? But the bathroom scale point is well taken...although men's been register off about twenty pounds for the last five years...hmm go figure!

Tracking a volume change while running a clock is just fundamentally easier than measuring flow directly. A direct flow measurement will be susceptible to turbulent flow issues. But I suppose some clinics use direct flow meters off site as they are more portable (and probably less expensive) than a volumetric spirometer. If direct flow meters reach a high quality and low cost point they will become more the norm. Realistically the turbulent flow issue is probably less than a 1% of the time problem so it isn't a big deal when you can take multiple readings relatively easily. You just have to know when to ignore a bad data point. If your bathroom scale gave you a wonky reading 1 in a 100 times, you wouldn't go out and buy a new scale, you wouldn't think you just gained 100 pounds, you'd just step off and step back on again to get a better reading.

I've ask several 'how does it work' questions when getting various biometrics, and have a great affinity for the doctors and technicians that can give me a good answer. I'd really expect a blank stare when asking the effects of turbulent flow on a PFT result. Most just expect the instruments to work and thanks to good engineers they do. Translating a biological, chemical, or mechanical input into a device and getting an accurate digital output is really one of the great wonders of modern medicine.
 
W

welshwitch

Guest
Just make sure that when they do the test, the tech inputs the correct height and weight! I've had situations where my % was lower than it should be because the person doing it put in my wrong height, thus throwing off the numbers!!!!
 
T

The Dot

Guest
If a spirometer is properly working (sincroniced or whatever its called/spelled), is it possible for it to wrongly record a too high number based on a child's improper technique? I can see a low number being wrong or not an accurate assessment because the technique is wrong, but is it possible for a high number (that isn't repeatedable, because of youth and inability to consistently do a good technique), to be wrong or inaccurate based on technique? Or can you assume if there are 6 blows and one is high and the others all low, the high is the "correct" one and the lows are based on inconsistent/inaccurate technique?
Thanks!!

It is definitely possible to scew the results with improper technique - my asthmatic son used to do it on his peak flow if he did not want to do a treatment. If the tongue is in the mouthpiece and then suddenly removed during blowing, it will cause flows to appear unusually high. Unfortunately, you do not mention if this is a flow or a volume that is unusually high. I am an RT, and I can tell you it is more difficult to get an incorrect FVC (volume measurement). That said, we take only those values which are reproducible because of the occasional outlier as you mention in your question.
 

Aboveallislove

Super Moderator
It is definitely possible to scew the results with improper technique - my asthmatic son used to do it on his peak flow if he did not want to do a treatment. If the tongue is in the mouthpiece and then suddenly removed during blowing, it will cause flows to appear unusually high. Unfortunately, you do not mention if this is a flow or a volume that is unusually high. I am an RT, and I can tell you it is more difficult to get an incorrect FVC (volume measurement). That said, we take only those values which are reproducible because of the occasional outlier as you mention in your question.

thanks dot! I actually called the tech folks yesterday and didn't reader that the A grade on the machine meant he had three reproducible tests which are within a certain level. If I might trouble you, I'd love to pm you the results and if you could spare a few minutes to explain what it means and if there is anything it tells you re validity etc. he's still learning technique etc. so I'm definitely not asking from a standpoint of medical diagnosis etc...just so I get a feel for it to have a intelligent discuss for his quarterly at end of month when hopefully he'll have three reproducible ones.
 
T

The Dot

Guest
thanks dot! I actually called the tech folks yesterday and didn't reader that the A grade on the machine meant he had three reproducible tests which are within a certain level. If I might trouble you, I'd love to pm you the results and if you could spare a few minutes to explain what it means and if there is anything it tells you re validity etc. he's still learning technique etc. so I'm definitely not asking from a standpoint of medical diagnosis etc...just so I get a feel for it to have a intelligent discuss for his quarterly at end of month when hopefully he'll have three reproducible ones.

Sure! Feel free to send them and I will look at them in my spare time today.
 
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