Win Ace where are you?

WinAce

New member
Okay.

The main problem with such evidence is that virtually all of it is anecdotal. There's very little quality control on personal testimony (the reason scientists discount it when conducting double-blind studies), so it can only ever be suggestive, not definitive. It can be collected in ways that skew the testimony, it can pass through multiple paraphrases (the "telephone effect"), and years can pass before such testimony is recorded, increasing the chances of hanky-panky even <i>without</i> intentional fraud. So, we should be automatically cautious. Be that as it may, there <i>are</i> ways of determining whether actual, bona-fide paranormal events occur, they just need to be studied in clever ways, and sensationalistic claims need to be critically analyzed.

Near-death experiences often contain seemingly hallucinogenic elements, like unicorns or talking flowers. They vary by culture, with Christians (obviously) seeing Jesus, while Muslims and Hindus encounter their own, unique religious imagery. In the same vein as the hallucinogenic stuff, people have encountered <i>living relatives</i> there, or experienced things that didn't occur in reality (i.e., seen doctors perform a procedure that actually wasn't). A lot of their often-reported features, like the blinding tunnel of light, have been reproduced with drugs like Ketamine.

The above doesn't say, of course, whether any particular NDE is legitimate. It just tells you that clearly, there is strong reason to believe <i>at least some NDEs are physiological.</i> That, in turn, very severely undermines the claim that they're evidence of an afterlife.

Two further, negative facts need to be mentioned: <b>(1)</b> people sometimes claim that, after an NDE, they acquire psychic powers (or are actually given visions of future events within the experience itself). They're not, however, any more successful than other psychics (that is to say, not at all). <b>(2)</b> Studies have been conducted with random words, and the like, attached to the top of a bookcase or other piece of tall furniture in an operating room or hospital bed, in such a way that a patient couldn't see them, but a spirit floating above the bed (during an out-of-body experience) could. None of these have confirmed that eerie, claimed capability to float outside the body.

Keith Augustine's <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html">Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences</a> and the <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://skepdic.com/nde.html">Skeptic's Dictionary entry</a> are some very thorough rundowns of the available evidence. In turn, they reference the primary literature, if you want to go wading through journals like the <i>Lancet</i> or <i>Death Studies</i>.

We should be wary of taking anecdotes, even when they appear convincing by themselves, at face value. This is because, taken in isolation, it's very easy to forget (to name but one example) the 50,000 times someone thinks of a long-lost friend, <i>without</i> them calling immediately afterward. But the one time it does happen is sure eerie! Similarly, lots of people have "prophetic dreams" (I, myself, just had one involving a terrorist bombing that would have occured today in New York--it didn't, of course). But the few times they do match up, by sheer coincidence, can be taken as stunning confirmation of something miraculous. That's why we don't just look at whether prophets get stuff right, any amount of the time, but whether they get stuff right <i>statistically more often than you'd expect by chance</i>.

Similar principles apply to almost any claimed encounter with the paranormal. If you dream about a relative unexpectedly, and find out the next day they're alive and well, you forget about it. If you dream about them, and find out they just died the previous night, it's downright creepy. Did their spirit visit you? Certainly, the temptation is there--an often overwhelming one--to believe that, as it would imply you'd get to see them again... but is it true? When you think about it some more, it doesn't necessarily mean they visited you, just that, in a world of 6 billion people, the weirdest coincidences can naturally happen. And since there's such a huge variety of <i>potential</i> coincidences, it's guaranteed that at least a couple will happen to you, personally.

That's not to demean or lessen any particular experience you interpret as spiritual, but ask yourself this: If something could happen <i>without</i> there being a spirit world, how can it be evidence for the spirit world? :\

So, what little rigorously methodic research there has been on NDEs has been disappointing, once taken in context. They contain features which strongly suggest a physiological origin. And you have very powerful, well-studied evidence from neuroscience making the existence of souls appear implausible, on the face of it (the mind-brain unity which I noted above). I'd say that, barring some future discovery that somehow turns everything upside down, there's not much room for a soul here...
 

Mockingbird

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>WinAce</b></i><br>What would you like me to do, Mockingbird? Hypocritically pretend that I believe prayer will help? I said I appreciate the <i>good intentions</i> behind it, which was being as charitable as possible, and which is, IMO, a perfectly appropriate response for religious "get well rituals" that you don't believe are effective. And I suggested something I'd appreciate even more (to wit, real-world help).

To be frank, if prayer is "the best chance I've got," I might as well give up and not waste the time. Fortunately, I don't buy <i>that</i>, either.<hr></blockquote>


I expect you to be a decent person. You're so wrapped up in yourself you don't even realize how much of a jerk you are. You pretty much said, "Thanks, that does absolutely nothing for me, why don't you go do something useful?" I'm not pissed off because you're atheist, i'm pissed because you're so damn arrogant and self-centered. But what pisses me off the most is you won't freakin listen to anyone but yourself. you think you have the whole damn world cupped in your hands so you don't bother to look up to see where you might be headed. Okay, NOW I'm forcing my religion on you, and whoever the hell thinks I was beforeyou don't even know how deep I'll go, and back the hell off, because you have no idea how far I'll go.

back to WinAce, all I want is for you to shut the hell up for a while, forget about everything you think you know, put away that damn useless pride you haveand have an earnest discussion with someone about Christ. Who is he? What's he all about? Exactly what did he teach? And don't try to be an "intellectual" and analyze everything, just listen. And for the love of god don't go about pointing at the flaws in christianity; Christianity is only man, with all of man's inherent flaws and imperfections, TRYING to follow ChristJust because man screws up 90% of the time that doesn't mean Christ was the same way. I'm not saying you have to believe, Just listen for a while, and then you can go back to your old self and no harm done. I know its stupid for something to be so important to me, stupid for me to worry so much about people I don't even know and have absolutely no impact on my life at all, but it's not like it's something I can control.

But whatever. I know i'm just wasting my time and i'm just making an as* out of myself for being so emotional. You're not going to talk to anybody. In fact, you're probably just going to reply how you already know all there is to know about Christ and you don't need to listen. Of course, because it's stupid of me to forget you have the world cupped in your hands, that you alreday have all the knowledge that you need... it really makes me sad, but there's nothing i can do, is there? ...no, there isn't. good luck and have a good life. This is me shaking the dust from my feet.

Jarod
 

JT

New member
Wow, Jarod. If your words are those of a Christian I might have a misunderstanding of Christianity. Try practicing what you preach (listening vs. reacting, non-judgementalness, acceptance).

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>NOW I'm forcing my religion on you, and whoever the hell thinks I was beforeyou don't even know how deep I'll go, and back the hell off, because you have no idea how far I'll go.<hr></blockquote>

OOooooh, is that a threat?

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>But what pisses me off the most is you won't freakin listen to anyone but yourself<hr></blockquote>

That's not true at all. Allan listens to/reads people's words then responds to what they say with his opinions (See post on NDE's above). The fact that you don't like what he has to say is the issue.

Here's a suggestion made by DietRootBeer that you clearly didn't listen to "So if he does not accept God is his life then let it go Hun...we cannot change that" I know you'll argue, as you've already done, that it's not the fact that he's an atheist that bothers you, but that's simply not true. You claimed that you didn't mind that Allan bashed God but your request was that he leave the "thank you" thread alone. You've continued to name call and attack his character on two other threads now. Why is it that you think Allan should "go away" and you have the right to continue posting (the same thing over and over)?
 

WinAce

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Mockingbird</b></i>
You're so wrapped up in yourself you don't even realize how much of a jerk you are.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>i'm pissed because you're so damn arrogant and self-centered.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>Okay, NOW I'm forcing my religion on you, and whoever the hell thinks I was beforeyou don't even know how deep I'll go, and back the hell off, because you have no idea how far I'll go.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>all I want is for you to shut the hell up for a while<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>put away that damn useless pride you have<hr></blockquote>

What was that Jesus reportedly said about the hypocrites and Pharisees? You remind me of the scene in <i>Saved</i> where the girl tosses a Bible at someone while yelling <i>"I am just FILLED with Christ's love."</i> (Great movie. Everyone should see it.) Quite frankly, followers like yourself are one of the top reasons I'm <b>absolutely</b> sure a God, if He existed, would never rely on humans to spread a message as vital as Christianity's supposedly is.

If you have any arguments devoid of personal attacks, I'll be glad to review them. Obviously, I can't make any guarantees about seeing the light and instantaneously converting if they're just the same old circular reasoning and non sequiturs ordinarily used to support religious claims, but I'll at least look them over. Which I suspect may be more than you've done with any of my posts to date.
 

anonymous

New member
Prayer poster here again with some ideas for fund raising. Although you are new to your area, I still think
there are fund raising opportunities. If I were in your shoes, I'd have Jessica & any local friends get busy
getting the word out in your local community. Where do you live now?

1. Call the local newspaper/TV channel to see if they would do a human interest story on you. It could include
CF, transplants in general, red tape, your specific case & a bank account to make donations.

2. Call the local schools to set up some sort of bike-a-thon, walk-a-thon or something along those lines to get
more donations. It's the start of the school year in some areas of the country.

3. Call the local sports teams to see if they will donate autographed jerseys or balls to auction off on ebay.

4. A large business may take on your case as a commmunity service project....you know, they would plan an
event & then match donations. This would very well be a way to raise a large amount of money.

I would think that a well-written & attractive flyer explaining your situation would help in getting any of these
off the ground. Some of the background info on your web site could be used.
 

anonymous

New member
Mockingbird,
As a fellow (non perfect) Christian, I can respect your frustration, but our job is to plant a seed & let God do the rest. You aren't going to be punished in Heaven if you didn't convert WinAce. He has a right to his beliefs and he knows there are other views out there. He, not you, will have to answer for his self at the Judgement Seat.
And WinAce, before you get all uptight, this is for Mockingbird, not you. I know you don't believe there will be a judgement/afterlife and that's cool<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif" border="0"> This is just my opinion/belief & I can state it just as you have and you are welcome to discard it by all means.
JS
 

anonymous

New member
Prayer poster one more time.

I guess you got the idea from my posting that I think local donations may be a good bet. If you can become
well-known locally, you may get some large donations. Sort of the home-town guy that everyone wants to
help.

Get the local stores that have those digital scrolling marquees to scroll your web site across. Maybe they can
donate a portion of each sale to your cause. You get the idea. It will take work though. Handing out
flyers & having someone personally visit these establishments. You are too sick to do it on your own, but they
could also take photos of you so it's clear who is being supported. Restaurants will sometimes agree to donate
a portion of sales during a specific period of time to your cause.
 

anonymous

New member
WinAce-

Thank you for your response. It was very interesting/insightful. I'm not sure I buy the whole ghost thing either...but I do believe in signs from the afterlife. I know that may sound crazy to some, but some of the things I have encountered are way to much of a "coincidence" to just be a coincedence. So you don't beleive that we have a soul at all? So when we die, its basically lights out and everything that we experienced in our lives is null? i don't know, I am seriously openly looking at your views to try and pick your brain, but i guess i just don't buy it. I don't believe that we can go through our whole lives and then just die and that's it. I believe in a heaven. And I believe that when I get there I will see my cousin, and my grandparents and various other family members that have already passed. I'm not one of those people that claim to look forward to death so that I can see my family members, but I would like to believe when I go my soul will go to heaven. Just my thoughts.
I visited your website. Very interesting and I look forward to seeing how your progress goes. I hope you get your transplant. I hope we can put aside any differences that we had before (that I may have cuased) because you are a very interesting person. If you have any questions about post transplant life feel free to ask. Its nice to know what to expect.
Margaret
Double Lung 11-11-04
 

WinAce

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>So when we die, its basically lights out...<hr></blockquote>

Yeah; the same thing that happens in that stage of sleep where you can lie for hours without experiencing anything, anesthesia, or generic unconsciousness. Those occur when areas of the brain responsible for self-awareness malfunction. When it's temporary (like the above) we snap out of it; but when the brain is destroyed, wholesale, through decomposition I just don't see how anything resembling "you" could survive. It houses our memories (which Alzheimer's can destroy), it houses our personality (which tumors and brain damage have been known to modify), it turns off our perception itself when not working properly.

However, just because I believe life ends with death, completely, doesn't mean I believe "everything that we experienced in our lives is null." For the comparatively brief time we're here, we can do a surprising amount of things; nice things, to boot. I dare anyone, theist or not, to fall in love at least once, or look into a child's grateful eyes, or convince someone on the verge of suicide to overcome their challenges, and say that was worthless, just because the feeling of elation can't last forever. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 

JazzysMom

New member
Bravo with your response Win Ace. Of all the fun I have had & all the people I have met....if nothing else I know the love of my daughter. Of course the love of my husband also, but thats a different level/type. A friend of mine (gruff on the outside & a teddy bear on the inside) told me that until you have a child call you, Mommy/Momma you dont know the feeling. It is sooooooo true! I think that is one reason I dont fear death or what happens after. I might now have accomplished as much as I could have in life, but I am very much happy with what I have done.
 

anonymous

New member
Winace-
I hear what you are saying and all...but what about our souls? I totally believe that we have a soul and that our brain isn't necissarily responsible for that. So even though our personalities can be changed by alzheimer's or some accident in which we are hit in the head, it is our souls that go to heaven. I guess I believe that all that we experienced in our lives comes with us. Everything that we know, everything that we learned, and all the experiences that we went through to make us who we are goes with us to wherever we land after death. Just how I look at things.
Margaret
Double lung 11-11-04
 

Mockingbird

New member
T o everyone who criticized me, shut up. =-) i made a very huge mistake in letting myself get upset and judging someone else, so don't you go doing the same thing, all right? I also made the mistake in being arrogant myself, believing that it was up to me to defend God and the anonymous prayer poster. I was trying to take things into my own hands, which is stupid since i'm only human.

It's not hard to see why I got so upset. I am close to God, so when WinAce attacks him so arrogantly then it hurts me. Not only that, but I care about WinAce, even though he makes me so mad I care about him just as much as I care about anyone else. Just because you're screaming at someone, that doesn't mean you don't care about them.

So anyway, to WinAce, i apologise... am I spelling apologise right? It doesn't look right... apoligise... aplogize... one of of the two. Anyway, please forgive me for being such an arrogant as* myself.

Unrealted... why can't I type the word as*? I know children come on here, but it's not like they hear worse things on TV and radio. I can understand why we can't be dropping F-bombs all over the place, but as*? come on! It's just a donkey! =-)
 

WinAce

New member
... About our souls... that, specifically, is what I think such evidence disproves. And no matter how I look at it, I can't escape that conclusion. If a soul is supposed to be indestructible, and is supposed to contain our memories and personality in a form that can survive death, why does mere brain <i>damage</i>--not even complete destruction--cause people to forget things?

The spiritualist would think a person (invulnerable) is driving a vulnerable car, our body, through life, while the materialist would argue the person IS their car, and shares in the same vulnerabilities. Given how everything that makes us human--our memories, personality, even self-awareness itself--appears to be fully contingent on our body, the latter seems far superior in its ability to explain things.

People who develop Alzheimer's disease eventually forget everything they hold dear. Am I to assume brain damage is somehow temporarily affecting their soul's ability to remember memories it really never lost? (Upon death, which set of memories would be restored to an amnesiac who started a whole new life after forgetting his first one?) Does anesthesia put a soul to sleep?

Can a tumor or stroke turn a formerly benevolent soul sociopathic? There's a case study of a young priest who lost his sense of empathy after one, joking while talk of his sister's leukemia was occuring. It, and other equally bizarre evidence of mind-brain unity, is listed rather exhaustively <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html#euphoria">here</a>. As the author of that article notes,

<i>"This wrenching story illustrates how a human property as fundamental as compassion arises from the brain and can be destroyed by altering the brain. A warm, caring, intelligent young man, as the result of brain damage, underwent a drastic personality change. He became indifferent to his priestly duties and unconcerned about the potentially fatal illness of a loved one, even light-heartedly joking about it with his grief-stricken parents, who said that he was "not the same person [they] knew and loved", not the same person he had been before his stroke.

One of the most basic ethical teachings, found in the sacred writings of many religions, is to love one's fellow human beings as oneself - in other words, to show compassion. But this young man, through no fault of his own, seems to have lost that ability. No longer able to feel these negative emotions himself, as a consequence he apparently became unable to imagine what they felt like in others. His ability to empathize with the sufferings of others, to experience their pain as if it was his own, had been 'smeared out' into a constant low-grade euphoria. How can a man be robbed of one of the most fundamental defining traits of humanity by brain damage if the doctrine of the soul is true?"</i>

The way I see it, I <i>could</i> reconcile these facts to the existence of a soul, but the result wouldn't make all that much sense, and I'd be invoking it for reasons independent of desiring the most reasonable explanation. The part of me which would want to see Jessica again, that would prefer a doctor's white lie about a fatal diagnosis, that would want to believe the Hitlers and Saddams of the world get theirs, regardless of how they make out in life, and that the uncelebrated saints among us get their rewards, might happily oblige. But another, more skeptical part, which would voice its objections against any too-good-to-be-true used car deal, or insist on getting the real diagnosis no matter what it was, would hesitate, and make me recall something M.M. Mangasarian wrote in 1909, in his <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/alex_matulich/why_i_believe/8_apndx.html">'A Parable'</a>:

<i>"And, then, remembering what he had said to me about the Greek mythology being beautiful but not true, I said to him: "Your temples are indeed gorgeous and costly; your music is grand your altars are superb; your litany is exquisite; your chants are melting; your incense, and bells and flowers, your gold and silver vessels are all in rare taste, and I dare say your dogmas are subtle and your preachers eloquent, but your religion has one fault - it is not true."</i>

But then, there's a negligible probability that I'm wrong (disclaimer for Mockingbird <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0"> )
 
Winace,
Can I just ask a question out of curiosity. I am not looking to push my religion on you in any way. Have you never thought there was something other than what you are saying? Have you never believed in a higher power. I can't imagine living without the hope of something so wonderful after this life. It has helped me in my life so many times to know that there is a purpose for me being here and going through what I go through. Also knowing that if I die young I will be with my husband and daughter again and this is not the end. It gives me such peace and comfort. You can rebuttle all that you want. I have read your remarks and although I don't believe at all what you do I respect you for your beliefs. I do hope that you will be able to get the transplant that you are needing.
 

anonymous

New member
Can I just make one comment? Could we please have a religion/spiritual section apart from this section? This has gotten to the point of being insane. Some people think they know everything, and will argue with a wall just because they can, and christians on here will debate. You want to know what? We all will know the truth when we die. Period. Could we please move on? I am so, so, sick of reading this kind of stuff on a CF board. Granted I could not open it but this is not under a religion title.

Like I said we will all know the truth when we die and their will be no need to debate of prove anything to anyone.

I vote this stuff belongs in the non CF catagory, or maybe if you are interested in WinAce and what he has to say go to his website,

Thanks,

Signed
Tired and Burnt out
 

Mockingbird

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>WinAce</b></i><brBut then, there's a negligible probability that I'm wrong (disclaimer for Mockingbird <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0"> )<hr></blockquote>

Ha ha, you have no idea how much of a difference that makes for me. Seriously, not sarcastically... just adding a disclaimer like that is enough to make me happy no matter what is is anyone is talking about.
 

anonymous

New member
I wish I could tell Winace that he's underestimating God with his logic, but if he doesn't believe in The God that created everything in 6 days, then I guess it's useless....
 

ihatecf

New member
Hey,

I'm so frustrated by the way Jarod is reacting. God gave us free will and we choose our way. If u wanna change winace's opinion I dont think its the right way. However, I would never understand how an atheist believes that there is no afterlife. Our life would be totally meaningless if there is no continuation though if it comes to me I would certainly prefer that death be the end of everything. It is because i'm afraid of the judgement day. I'm afraid that my eternity turns into a pure suffering stage. I know its not enough to believe in Jesus but rather act by his will. If you ask me at this moment what I rely on if i'm quite sure that hell might be my final destination, well I rely on Jesus' love and sympathy. He knows how my life went and why I did what I did. I dont believe in the fact that every sin is a sin no matter how big. There is a criteria on which sinners will be judged also there are different stages of suffering. Not all will receive the same punishments just as it wouldnt make sense if all receive the same rewards. A saint wont be rewarded the same as an ordinary believer. If my beliefs are wrong, and I doubt they are, then God would be unfair and that is not the case. Well yeah, I followed my desires until I was left with no desires. I couldnt imagine that our souls would just vanish. If Winace could give me just a single proof that death would be the end of everything I would be interested to discuss. Its not the case winace. If the world is absolute chaos and there is no creator then why would the world destroy itself, why would there be a beginning and an end? The world is so organized that there is no reason to doubt the existence of a creator. God chose me to have cf and inflicted misery upon my life, because he has some intentions which I would never understand. I would say that it would be completely unfair that I go to hell, but I would never doubt the existence of God. I would like to change winace's mind abt the existence of a creator who he has the right to love or love not, but still he exists. Well, I can write forever so I would stop here. Take care all.
 

WinAce

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr> <i>Originally posted by lovingBenandCambree</i>
Have you never thought there was something other than what you are saying?<hr></blockquote>

I haven't always been an atheist. Nor a materialist. Somewhere down the line I realized I was believing for reasons that were irrational (basically, because I grew up in a culture that was predominantly Christian). My curiosity piqued, I looked for other, better reasons, thinking there was no way so many smart people throughout so many centuries could be wrong. It <i>had</i> to be my fault, for not seeing how it did make sense, after all. But that quest ultimately proved fruitless.

Regarding "free will," as the author of <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html">that article</a> notes, again,

<i>"If, as most varieties of theism believe, the purpose of embodied life on Earth is as a testing ground where people are allowed to freely determine their eternal fate, then the existence of such conditions [as paranoid schizophrenia] is an unexpected fact that does not fit well within such a framework. <b>Theists who believe this must postulate that God placed us on Earth for the purpose of exercising our free will and then created conditions that influence certain people's personalities and prevent them from exercising their free will</b> - a highly contrived and ad hoc assumption. By contrast, a materialist theory of the mind can consistently account for these conditions and others like them."</i>

As I already said, no, just because life isn't eternal doesn't mean it's meaningless. That's a non-sequitur (it doesn't logically follow from the premise). You can <i>assume</i> that, if life would be meaningless to you, personally (unless it lasted forever), but please don't make the mistake of assuming that for everyone else, too. And I've already posted as good "proof" as you could expect on any issue, above, that life ends with brain death. If you want to dispute that, try explaining Alzheimer's disease or callosal disconnection (the "split brain syndrome") in a spiritualist framework. If your effort is even <i>as</i> coherent and elegant as the materialist explanation, to say nothing of being superior as an explanation, I'll eat a hat. One made of cotton candy or something else edible, but a hat nonetheless.

That order implies intelligence is also a non-sequitur. (Snowflakes are <i>not</i> individually designed by pixies.) Not to mention that postulating God, just more of the same order, to "explain" it is hardly explaining anything, in the first place. You're just pushing the question back one level and slapping an unknowable label on it. Oh, and...

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>God chose me to have cf and inflicted misery upon my life...<hr></blockquote>

Why would anyone worship such a god in the first place? Fear that he'll inflict <i>more</i> suffering on you, if you don't? I doubt you'd want a personal relationship with any person who created diseases like CF, even if they weren't a mere fictional boogeyman out to get you if you worship incorrectly.
 
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