Controversial Topic

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ladybug

New member
Thank you, Allie...

I do agree with you. I have to make peace with the fact that what I use on a daily basis did come at the expense of some form of life. I think I sort of have.

I just wish I could make peace with the fundraising issue so I could raise money and awareness for CFF. Its almost like I'm battling with myself on this and really nothing anyone can say or do will make a difference, cause I agree and disagree with BOTH sides. urgh....

I do think asking CFF to allocate where my funds are spent is great, however.... How would I go about doing this for something like the CF walk?
 
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miesl

New member
You asked for suggestions.

I offered that there is no other option - as if you want medication you have to deal with animal testing. I also offered reasons why animal testing is important and ethical.

If your ethics say animals > people, then animal testing is wrong, and you should flush all your medications (especially your pig pancreas enzymes). If your ethics say people > animals, animal testing is the correct and moral thing to do. If you think animals = people - you're going to have to think about how it isn't the choice of the CFF to test on people, it is a requirement of the FDA, therefore if you want medications, you must find it ethical.
 
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Allie

New member
I just called the CFF...and I came up empty, sorry Sonia, I tried. But I still think donating there is the right thing to do.
 
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jenhum

New member
I don't feel the same way you do about this particular situation, but I respect the fact that it's how you feel. However, I think that by using the medicines and treatments discovered by the CFF, you have already made your choice. IMO, it seems a bit selfish to reap the benefits of the research they do, but refuse to donate to support that research. That is just my opinion though, take it for what it is worth <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">.
 
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ladybug

New member
Thank you for the suggestions then, miesl.... I think it was the tone you appeared to be using when I'd post links that put me off a bit.

I guess when it comes to research, I am simply torn. For beauty, and vanity reasons, I have no such dillema as I do feel that if what we are using is for purely vanity reasons, we must respect that we cannot use other forms of life so we may look "pretty".

For research, I do agree that animals have died for the meds I use. As I mentioned, I think about this sacrifice nearly every time I use said meds (yes, I know about the pancrease). I also think about the sacrifice when I eat meat so I can maintain my weight. I realize I haven't much choice, nor does CFF on how they pass so many great drugs/treatments.

My post was regarding how I may come to peace with such things and raise money for CFF without A. Feeling hypocritical and B. Feeling like I'm directly adding to the problem of research on animals (I feel that if I support charities that are not actively seeking other ways, even if they DO test on animals, I am telling them its ok to continue following what has "always been done.) That is just my opinion. Not everyone will agree.

Thanks for all the different perspectives on this topic! I'm greatful!

<b>I also appreciate you calling CFF, Allie!!!</b> That's awesome of you... even if you didn't get results. Did they tell you anything? Or, did you just not get through?
 
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ladybug

New member
I do agree, Jenny, and that is precisely why I feel so guilty about it all. I feel bad that I take the meds after they've been tested on animals, and I also feel bad that I don't raise money for those responsible for giving me said meds. So, I guess I"m just busy kicking my own a*s for whatever I do.

<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
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Allie

New member
I called, told the lady who answered I doubted she could help, with all due respect, and would she give me to the highest up person she could possibly conenct to? She was very nice, and forwarded me to her manager, who told me there was no way they could separate it out and guarantee that it would all go to office costs, they don't have the resources. I tried, sorry it didn't work.
 
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Abby

New member
I think it's great that Allie called to see if funds could be diverted to CFF chapter offices for you. To bad they can't but it probably would be a nightmare if they tried. You may however, be able to purchase office supplies for your local CFF chapter office, which would be the same? Maybe they are like my chapter office and need a color printer or something that cff isn't willing to purchase for them but would be useful in doing their jobs of raising money for all of us that deal with cf. I have yet to ask if I could purchase this for them, but I don't know why they would refuse it either.
 
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anonymous

New member
ladybug,

Instead of trying to come to terms with supporting CFF, why don't you find an alternate way of helping? If it truly makes you uncomfortable, don't do it, regardless of how that medicine is helping you.

The most important thing about donating is that you feel good about it. There are lots of other ways that you could help without having the money go to the CFF - you just have to put your brain to work. For example, raising money for "sterile" toys in the cf peds section, or something crazy like that. Or donating the money to a cf center to purchase new equipment, or to a cf transplant fund for cfers without the funds for a lung transplant...

Just an idea.

--Wallflower
 
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Faust

New member
I didn't read it all, but I see where you are going with this. Here are my thoughts about animal testing for medication purposes. Even though pigs are close enough for us to use some of their organs within our bodies (porcine heart valves, etc), we still aren't pigs. Equally, we aren't rats. Also the way they pursue testing isn't all that valid either. If you force feed a rat 100,000 MG of aspartame (nutrasweet) to see if it causes cancer or other health related problems, it probably will because that is a staggering amount for a rat. Ok so what if they do the same thing but in a ratio more alike a human (as in a human would eat X amount per month per body size, so scale that down for a rat)? Well that is still flawed, you know why? We aren't rats.


Some substances like say, oh URANIUM are a given when it comes to "Causes cancer in lab rats", well duh to that, that will attack any genetic structure of any multi celled lifeform. The thing is, we have extremely advanced computer models now that can much more accurately simulate (from a tremendously huge medical database, ironically, much of that has been knowlege gained from animal testing) what will happen on a cellular level to our bodies when X amount of Y substance is introduced into us via Z method.


Bottom line, for the most part, animal testing is so 20th century. For god sakes the military still gets Rheses monkeys and crashes the poor things into walls at high speeds to test head trauma. We still have makeup companies pushing tons of their products into monkeys eyes/skin. We still have countless other animals dying for us in torturous ways. The thing is, even if you want to say "Yeah well F em, my son/daughter/myself is more important than a rat/monkey/whatever". Well that is fine, but the problem is, the data gained from the tests is extremely inaccurate. You know why? We aren't rats/monkeys.


Computer simulations would be much MUCH more accurate for what we are trying to do.
 
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Faust

New member
And to expound on my feelings. I'm a pretty mean person once you have identified yourself as not being worthy of continuing to live. You want 100% accurate non computer models for medical/cosmetic/food substance testing? There are tons of them, and they have life sentence/death sentences in prison. Perfectly good, 100% accurate models sitting there sucking up our tax dollars on a yearly basis, continuing to breathe our air and eat our food, watch tv, fornicate, lift weights, pursue education/gain collegiate degrees, choke our legal system with endless appeals...


I say screw em. Leave the poor rats/monkeys/whatever alone. The data is flawed, and they have never done anything to us to deserve that treatment. If you want to do it right, find those who have zero concern for our laws and morals as a society, and use them. They gave up their rights to be protected when they decided on abducting, torturing, raping, then murdering a 7 year old little girl.


There, thats the answer to your moral dilema on the issue. The problem is, that whole "cruel and unusual punishment" thing. Screw that RIGHT in the ear. I feel just electrocuting or injecting someone after 30 years on death row is a total waste of money. Give the family some sick vengeance in knowing that individual will be torturously medically tested on for the rest of his natural (or unnatural) life and be in extreme misery. Also blame religion, and in particular (due to us being in the USA), our founding fathers deep connections with Christianity. That whole "Yeah well animals don't have souls, so we can do with them what we please" thing is a load of bollocks. We can't even prove that we have or don't have souls, what right do we have to say something is beneath us not harming it, because well, it's not us (it's easy to do that when "it's not us").


It's reasons like this I agree with that professor from Minnesota. He said that 90% of all human life on this planet needs to end for things to "clean up", and our entire biosphere and cycle of evolution to take a more positive approach. You might think statements like that are insane (and i'd fully be willing to vollunteer to be one to go if it would fix things for future generations and our way of life), but the dude is 100% correct. The truth hurts.
 
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JazzysMom

New member
I dont have any clear cut answers for your ethical dilemma. All I can say for me is (this will be controversial) out of sight out of mind........do I sit & think about what animals go thru for me to have quality meds~~NO! Do I hate animal abuse & people that poach/hunt animals for fun only without using it as a necessity of life~~YES! Do I hunt any of these people down~~NO! These is one of those things that doesnt have an easy solution if there is any!
 
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Faust

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>JazzysMom</b></i>

I dont have any clear cut answers for your ethical dilemma. All I can say for me is (this will be controversial) out of sight out of mind........do I sit & think about what animals go thru for me to have quality meds~~NO! Do I hate animal abuse & people that poach/hunt animals for fun only without using it as a necessity of life~~YES! Do I hunt any of these people down~~NO! These is one of those things that doesnt have an easy solution if there is any!</end quote></div>



Sure there is an easy solution, read my above post. The problem is, we mistakenly feel we are an enlightened non cruel society and way above what I wrote. Thats a load of BS too. Ever watch one hour of "must see TV?". No wonder the aliens won't land and say hi. If you saw and heard the 50+ years of TV and radio broadcasts that humanity has been sendind to the stars all that time, would you land down and say hi?


I'd send an intergalactic size can of RAID to get rid of us.
 
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Landy

New member
So you're upset about testing using mice & rats? Are those the only rodents (I don't think they're classified as animals) the CFF uses?

And this is going to sound terribly sarcastic, but it's something I've seriously thought of before: what do people that get all bent out of shape about lab testing do when they get rats/mice in their house?? Do you just co-exist with them or are there 'friendly' traps available that I'm unaware of where you can release them back into nature?
 
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TCNJcystic

New member
Unfortunately, there is the ban on the use of cruel and unusual punishment on our prisoners, and I think testing drugs on them would be cruel and unusual. That's just my opinion though.

To the original question, the best way I heard this idea put was like this:
When it comes to giving a 12 year old girl the best and healthiest life she can get with the best medical research available in comparison to the value of the life of a rat, society owes it to that girl that they prioritize her over the rat.

Hopefully this idea can help you cope!
 
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anonymous

New member
Ladybug,
The animal research dilemma applies to anyone who takes medicine, and it's important, at the very least, to acknowledge how it gets to us. Maybe you can picture yourself as an ancient hunter who always thanks and reveres the animal she takes for food. Being aware of our own place in the world is the first step. Just by living, any organism takes resources away from other organisms. Try not to feel guilty for being what you are, and needing what you need. Just try to give back to the world to your fullest capability. As for being hypocritical, I think there are very few people in the world who aren't hypocrites in some way, shape, or form, including me. Donate to what makes you feel best, maybe Lungs for Life?

That said, I'm getting a PhD in bioengineering, and I work in a lab that does CF basic research and high throughput drug discovery, supported by CFF. First, I want to clear up a misconception. Pulmozyme is NOT made from hamster ovaries. It's made from a cell line called CHO, derived a long time ago from chinese hamster ovaries, but used the world over in the majority of biology labs in the world. These are cells in a dish, not ovaries taken from a hamster. Second, we use mice in basic research. Many times, you cannot just simulate something on a computer, or get results from a dish of cells. A computer simulation is only helpful if you have the underlying knowledge to design the model, and the only way to get real knowledge is to do an experiment. But it is also true that mice aren't humans. When the CFTR gene is knocked out of mice, they don't get lung disease! Nobody knows why, because scientists still don't know why the basic protein defect actually causes lung disease...is it pH, is it ion balance, is it viscosity? But the fact that mice don't have CF lung disease may help us to understand why people do. Anyway, I've obviously come to terms with animal research. I just wanted to give you my perspective, as someone who actually does some of the work.

Hope you can find a balance--
 
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ladybug

New member
SeanD.... WOW! I've never been so moved by your posts! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> You certianly made some interesting points... and, ones I didn't really expect to be honest.

As far as rats and mice in the home... yes, there ARE humane traps. They don't work all that well however, but I would be likely to exhaust all possible means of a humane end to our cohabitation before ending their lives, and actually, were it not for them carrying some very toxic viruses that can hurt myself, my family, and my pets, I certainly would let them live in my home (call me crazy). I also let spiders and bugs live in my home or try to scoop them out the window. But, that is just me. And, you asked. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
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Ender

New member
Um just out of curiousity, if a muslim had cf, we s/he not be allowed to take enzymes, seeing as they are of porcine origin? I've always wondered this.

Man that would suck. You don't take enzymes, you die, and if you do, you go to hell.

<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0">
 
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