OT-Update on friend in Iraq

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anonymous

New member
Actually, I have never thought this thread was CF-related in any way - and I still don't. And I have never thought it really belonged up here at all on any of the forums (except the OffTopic one).

I didn't mention this at first because I frankly just expected the moderator to move the post/thread. When that didn't happen, I didn't mention it because "who was I to say".

Now that it has been mentioned, I would say that I think that this material is more appropriate for a blog than any thread. It is one person's take on a matter that is going to "trial" and on which we should stay open minded until the "trial" is over. Any statements made in it are colored by the friendship mentioned in the thread - as well as by the commonality of "being in the service".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that it has nothing to do with CF and was shared in an attempt to get the members of this board to feel/believe something about a situation that none of us have enough facts to actually form an opinion on now.

-LisaV
 
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anonymous

New member
As the wife of a veteran -- I disagree. A soldier has a RESPONSIBILITY to refuse an order should it be ILLEGAL. Murder -- dragging and innocent person out of his home and murdering him is illegal. It is a crime. No ifs ands or butts. The soldiers were wrong and should be punished. I believe "I was just following orders" didn't fly after WW II during the nazi war crime trials.
 
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anonymous

New member
I agree that "A soldier has a RESPONSIBILITY to refuse an order should it be ILLEGAL."

We don't know the facts of the case yet. It has not yet been "tried" . So innocent until proven guilty.
 
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anonymous

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>julie</b></i>

Some of you might remember a post I made a few weeks ago regarding my friend and her husband's situation. Yesterday, he along with 7 marines WERE charged with Murder. ....I know it's easy to jump to judgement about killing an "innocent" person but please before you judge, I beg of you to keep in mind 1.We are at war, 2. when you recieve an order by a superior you are to carry it out without question, however wrong it might be. Especially on a deployment when the only people to turn to and report wrong-doings to are those who are instructing it to be done.
"</end quote></div>

I was referring to this quote in terms of murder. Seems as if they're making excuses about WHY they did it -- NOT denying they did it. Whole laundry list of excusing their behaviour.
 
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julie

New member
Wife of a veteran: Any member of the military refusing an order during a time of war can be put to death on the spot. <b>Period, bottom line, end of story</b>. It woudn't do my friend any good to get shot by his superiors for refusing to carry out an order and die, and then later they investigate and low and behold, he was in the RIGHT. Doesn't do one much good if he is dead now does it.

I am sorry for those of you who don't think this is CF related. The solution is simple, please don't read it. I'm not taking away from someone elses thread.

This IS CF related to myself and to my husband as it has a HUGE impact in our lives in more ways than many of you might know or even consider. You don't have to agree with anything I've posted by any means, but it is CF related and I am asking for support for myself and for friends.

Thank you to everyone for the support you have given to Mark and I thusfar and the prayers and well wishes for the family. This is really a trying time for us and we sincerely appreciate the support.
 
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anonymous

New member
Julie,
I am sorry you and Mark are under extra stress because of your concerns for your friend. I support you both in doing what you need to do to manage your health during this trying time.

This support does not extend to agreeing with you on what the Geneva Convention has to say about obeying orders that violate human rights and war crimes - or on my reluctance to decide on a person's final guilt or innocence before a trial (except for the standard "presumed innocent" standard).

But then I am sure that you were not possibly suggesting that disagreeing about these important was a lack of personal support for you and Mark. Even the best of friends may disagree about political matters - or decide to withhold judgement about an alleged crime until all of the facts are known. I am sure that the only reason that you made this original post was just to let us all know how stressed out you are right now.

-LisaV
 
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anonymous

New member
I so agree with the last part of your post Julie. I am so sick of the way the media is constantly portaying our military as the "evil" ones. What about all of the good our military has done over there. I makes me so mad that I have stopped watching every news channel except for Fox news. Your family will be in our prayers.
 
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miesl

New member
I have to agree with LisaV.

This does not belong on the Adults board. It IS off topic to every CF person BUT you.

Second, "Just following orders" is not a valid legal (or IMHO moral) excuse. Both the Geneva convention and US military law support this.
 
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Emily65Roses

New member
I'd like to see a list of factual information stating all the "good" we've done over there that CANNOT be argued. I don't see a whole lot of good. I support the troops, because a lot of them aren't in because they want to be, but due to lack of options (the military is compromised of a hell of a lot of poor people). I do NOT support the forces in charge that sent us over there or really any of the decisions they've made.

If you want to start arguing Iraqi democracy, I will stop you right there. Did they ask us to come in and TELL them how to run their government? I don't think so.

Why do Americans always seem to think that they're the damn world police? I know that movie was a little more than stupid, but it had some good points. Who the hell are we to tell the WORLD how to run?

Kay I'm done now. I wouldn't have started this debate on my own, but an anon mentioned all the good we're doing over there blah blah, so I had to step in and say my peace.
 
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anonymous

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>miesl</b></i>

I have to agree with LisaV.



This does not belong on the Adults board. It IS off topic to every CF person BUT you.



Second, "Just following orders" is not a valid legal (or IMHO moral) excuse. Both the Geneva convention and US military law support this.</end quote></div>

The one you posted in the family area doesn't belong there either. Sorry 'bout your friend's wife, but agree with Miesl and Lisa V on the issue of violating the geneva convention, etc.
 
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anonymous

New member
following orders (note that military law states soldiers are required only to follow <i>lawful </i>orders).

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm
">http://usmilitary.about.com/cs...1/a/obeyingorders.htm
</a>
 
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anonymous

New member
Julie, perhaps remember these directives and classes on the Law of War? Especially the part about Duty of Combatants Toward Civilians and Civilian Property and war crimes (including willful killing) and Protect Noncombatants and Civilians from the Consequences of Combat?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf2/d510077p.pdf#search='dod%20law%20of%20war'
">http://www.dtic.mil/whs/direct...dod%20law%20of%20war'
</a>

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.heidelberg.army.mil/sites/services/Training/Law_of_War_files/frame.htm#slide0004.htm
">http://www.heidelberg.army.mil...ame.htm#slide0004.htm
</a>
-LisaV
 
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miesl

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>julie</b></i>

Wife of a veteran: Any member of the military refusing an order during a time of war can be put to death on the spot. <b>Period, bottom line, end of story</b>. </end quote></div>

You missed the important keyword "refusing a <b>lawful</b> order" part of that.

Period, bottom line, end of story.
 
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julie

New member
Miesl,

I am not dumb and understand the definition of a lawful order. The issue is this (and I must say, even I dont' know what REALLY happened), If you are in a war zone and ordered to do something that you thing is an <b>unlawful</b> order, what are your choices? #1, report it to your superior, #2, flat out refuse to do it #3, do it and pay the consequences.

If you read the news in my friends situation, #1. the superiors were the ones giving the UNLAWFUL order so you can't report it to them, #2. he could have flat out refused to do it, but then he could have faced even worse consequences (believe me, superiors falsify info all the time, they are just as crooked as the Enron exec.'s) or been put to death on the spot. Sure, it probably would have later been investigated but what good does that do my friend it he's dead or already spent years in the brig? NONE and #3. He did what he was ordered (and it isn't clear yet what his involvement is) and will clearly pay the consequences for that.

Period, Bottom line, End of story.
 
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Lilith

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>julie</b></i>

If you read the news in my friends situation, #1. the superiors were the ones giving the UNLAWFUL order so you can't report it to them, #2. he could have flat out refused to do it, but then he could have faced even worse consequences (believe me, superiors falsify info all the time, they are just as crooked as the Enron exec.'s) or been put to death on the spot. Sure, it probably would have later been investigated but what good does that do my friend it he's dead or already spent years in the brig? NONE and #3. He did what he was ordered (and it isn't clear yet what his involvement is) and will clearly pay the consequences for that. </end quote></div>

That's still no excuse for murdering an innocent man. I don't care what the circumstances were. Morally, you just <b>don't do it</b>. Its inexcuseable. Better to die with honor (not that anyone really has that or cares about it now adays) than live knowing that you took an innocent life just to save your own behind. That's cowardice, in my opinion. Not only that, but the entire incident has only given those that already hate America a reason to futher justify it. Not that their opinons are right, but things like this don't help.

My 2 cents. You join the military, you're prepared to die for your country, and for the sake of <b>doing the right thing</b>. This act served neither purpose.

On the other hand (though I don't feel sorry for this man, he decided his own fate) I do feel for the family, and for you, Julie. You'll be in my thoughts.
 
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Mockingbird

New member
I'm sure if Melson was single, he would have gladly died with honor. He's got a newborn daughter, though. Doesn't help her much if he dies with honor. Now stop judging. I thought I (as a Christian) was supposed to be the hypocritical one, remember? I'm not only talking to Lilith, but everyone. Who cares where the post belongs, or whether it should be in a blog? The post is clearly labeled; you know exactly what it's about. If it bugs you, then don't click on it.

Julie, I will continue to pray.
 
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Lilith

New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I'm sure if Melson was single, he would have gladly died with honor. He's got a newborn daughter, though. Doesn't help her much if he dies with honor.</end quote></div>

Doesn't help her much if he's in jail for murder, either.

And to that, Mockingbird, I have one question. Is it better for the little one to know her father killed a man, and probably never see him because of that choice (he'd be behind bars), or to grow up without her father around but know that he died a hero (assmuing, of course, that he's actually shot on sight)? Either way, that little girl won't know her father as she should. I see very little difference in the matter.

And, this is my opinion only. I have the right to express it ('judge', if that's how you term it) how I see fit.
 
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Lilith

New member
And congratulations to you on missing mine. Clearly we won't see eye to eye on this issue, so I won't bother trying.

Have a nice night.
 
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