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walked away from God
- Thread starter lilMeggies
- Start date
thelizardqueen
New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?
thelizardqueen
New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?
Hi there. I just wanted to share something that's always made a lot of sense to me. In most faiths, followers are supposed to work hard and live up to some impossible standard, and do it all on their own. Christianity is the one where Jesus comes in and does what we can't do ourselves. Something to think about.
Also, I think it's important to consider absolute truth. We all just can't come from or go to whatever we wish or hope. There is a real history and a reality that happened and only one thing is ultimately true. Many people say that everyone should just "believe in what works for them" but that logically doesn't make sense to me.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and contributions. I know that I feel a lot of peace in my life, and I hope you do too. Take care.
Also, I think it's important to consider absolute truth. We all just can't come from or go to whatever we wish or hope. There is a real history and a reality that happened and only one thing is ultimately true. Many people say that everyone should just "believe in what works for them" but that logically doesn't make sense to me.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and contributions. I know that I feel a lot of peace in my life, and I hope you do too. Take care.
Hi there. I just wanted to share something that's always made a lot of sense to me. In most faiths, followers are supposed to work hard and live up to some impossible standard, and do it all on their own. Christianity is the one where Jesus comes in and does what we can't do ourselves. Something to think about.
Also, I think it's important to consider absolute truth. We all just can't come from or go to whatever we wish or hope. There is a real history and a reality that happened and only one thing is ultimately true. Many people say that everyone should just "believe in what works for them" but that logically doesn't make sense to me.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and contributions. I know that I feel a lot of peace in my life, and I hope you do too. Take care.
Also, I think it's important to consider absolute truth. We all just can't come from or go to whatever we wish or hope. There is a real history and a reality that happened and only one thing is ultimately true. Many people say that everyone should just "believe in what works for them" but that logically doesn't make sense to me.
I appreciate everyone's thoughts and contributions. I know that I feel a lot of peace in my life, and I hope you do too. Take care.
Mockingbird
New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>thelizardqueen</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i>
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?<hr></blockquote>
You're misinterpreting the scripture. It isn't enough to simply believe in God, we also have to do God's will. As it says in James,
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
<b>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.</b> You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder. James 2:14-19<hr></blockquote>
To say (as the anon. poster said) that Jesus is the easy way out is ignorant. Faith is not a passive thought you can just keep in the back of your mind. When the Bible says we are free in Christ, it is saying we are free from sin; it is not saying we are free to do as we please.
As for the second part of you question, the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) I realize this is strictly a Christian belief so it does not hold a lot of weight with anyone else, but it explains why we say we are saved by faith <blockquote>Quote<br><hr> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8<hr></blockquote>
Now, when people think of sin, they commonly think of murder, rape, theft, etc., however, people forget such things as envy, pride, and lacking reverance for God are also sins. I realize we see these things as 'minor sins', but I am reminded of the story of Cain and Abel. Most people know Cain and Abel were brothers, and the first children of Adam and Eve. Cain was a farmer while Abel tended flocks. When it came time to give an offering to God (After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and before Christ was crucified, it was necessary to give an offering for repentance of sin), Abel chose to give the best of the firstborn of his flock, while Cain simply brought some of the crops he was unlikely to use. Thus, Cain commited the sin of irreverance for God. When God looked favorably on Abel's offering and not on Cain's, Cain became jealous and angry. (thus comitting another sin) It was at this point, God said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? <b>But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."</b> Obviously Cain did not listen because as we all know, he ended up attacking Abel and killing him. (Genesis 4:1-8)
Through this story we understand why a place like Hell is necessary, not as a punishment but a consequence. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said, "Now that they have this knowledge, they must not be able to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3;22) In order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, we must absolve ourselves of all sin; not only must we be without a sinful thought in our head, but we must also forsake even the knowledge of sin so that a sinful thought cannot enter into our head ever again. (Matthew 18:3)
Naturally, that is pretty much impossible. That is where Jesus comes in. That is not to say we are all automatically saved just because Jesus died for us, however. We must also come humbly with a repentant heart which not only acknowledges sin, but also wishes to wash it away. If someone is "on the fence" about God, then do they acknowledge all sin? They may not even be conscious of all sin!
Going back to Romans, <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>How, then can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:14-15 <hr></blockquote>
I realize the next logical question is "What about people who have never heard of God?" Paul in fact answers that question in the next few verses, but it is an answer which requires faith in order to accept, so I'm not going to bother with it.
Last thing, you brought up the death-bed conversion thing. Yeah, it seems unfair for a rapist and murderer to turn to God at the last second and go to heaven. Thing is, when they turn to God, they are no longer a rapist and murder. They are "born-again." I'm sure we've all been close someone who has screwed up in their lives. I think the best example that most of us has had to deal with is alchoholism or drug addiction. Now, when these people turn their lives around, what is the right thing for us to do? Should we hold a grudge and lock them out of our lives as punishment forever? Nobody will win in that situation. During their addiction didn't we ache for that person to change? Wouldn't we have done anything to set them on the right track again? By welcoming them back, however, forgetting the past and begining a new life we lose that pain and are overjoyed. (Matthew 18:10-14)
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i>
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?<hr></blockquote>
You're misinterpreting the scripture. It isn't enough to simply believe in God, we also have to do God's will. As it says in James,
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
<b>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.</b> You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder. James 2:14-19<hr></blockquote>
To say (as the anon. poster said) that Jesus is the easy way out is ignorant. Faith is not a passive thought you can just keep in the back of your mind. When the Bible says we are free in Christ, it is saying we are free from sin; it is not saying we are free to do as we please.
As for the second part of you question, the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) I realize this is strictly a Christian belief so it does not hold a lot of weight with anyone else, but it explains why we say we are saved by faith <blockquote>Quote<br><hr> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8<hr></blockquote>
Now, when people think of sin, they commonly think of murder, rape, theft, etc., however, people forget such things as envy, pride, and lacking reverance for God are also sins. I realize we see these things as 'minor sins', but I am reminded of the story of Cain and Abel. Most people know Cain and Abel were brothers, and the first children of Adam and Eve. Cain was a farmer while Abel tended flocks. When it came time to give an offering to God (After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and before Christ was crucified, it was necessary to give an offering for repentance of sin), Abel chose to give the best of the firstborn of his flock, while Cain simply brought some of the crops he was unlikely to use. Thus, Cain commited the sin of irreverance for God. When God looked favorably on Abel's offering and not on Cain's, Cain became jealous and angry. (thus comitting another sin) It was at this point, God said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? <b>But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."</b> Obviously Cain did not listen because as we all know, he ended up attacking Abel and killing him. (Genesis 4:1-8)
Through this story we understand why a place like Hell is necessary, not as a punishment but a consequence. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said, "Now that they have this knowledge, they must not be able to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3;22) In order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, we must absolve ourselves of all sin; not only must we be without a sinful thought in our head, but we must also forsake even the knowledge of sin so that a sinful thought cannot enter into our head ever again. (Matthew 18:3)
Naturally, that is pretty much impossible. That is where Jesus comes in. That is not to say we are all automatically saved just because Jesus died for us, however. We must also come humbly with a repentant heart which not only acknowledges sin, but also wishes to wash it away. If someone is "on the fence" about God, then do they acknowledge all sin? They may not even be conscious of all sin!
Going back to Romans, <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>How, then can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:14-15 <hr></blockquote>
I realize the next logical question is "What about people who have never heard of God?" Paul in fact answers that question in the next few verses, but it is an answer which requires faith in order to accept, so I'm not going to bother with it.
Last thing, you brought up the death-bed conversion thing. Yeah, it seems unfair for a rapist and murderer to turn to God at the last second and go to heaven. Thing is, when they turn to God, they are no longer a rapist and murder. They are "born-again." I'm sure we've all been close someone who has screwed up in their lives. I think the best example that most of us has had to deal with is alchoholism or drug addiction. Now, when these people turn their lives around, what is the right thing for us to do? Should we hold a grudge and lock them out of our lives as punishment forever? Nobody will win in that situation. During their addiction didn't we ache for that person to change? Wouldn't we have done anything to set them on the right track again? By welcoming them back, however, forgetting the past and begining a new life we lose that pain and are overjoyed. (Matthew 18:10-14)
Mockingbird
New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>thelizardqueen</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i>
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?<hr></blockquote>
You're misinterpreting the scripture. It isn't enough to simply believe in God, we also have to do God's will. As it says in James,
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
<b>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.</b> You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder. James 2:14-19<hr></blockquote>
To say (as the anon. poster said) that Jesus is the easy way out is ignorant. Faith is not a passive thought you can just keep in the back of your mind. When the Bible says we are free in Christ, it is saying we are free from sin; it is not saying we are free to do as we please.
As for the second part of you question, the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) I realize this is strictly a Christian belief so it does not hold a lot of weight with anyone else, but it explains why we say we are saved by faith <blockquote>Quote<br><hr> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8<hr></blockquote>
Now, when people think of sin, they commonly think of murder, rape, theft, etc., however, people forget such things as envy, pride, and lacking reverance for God are also sins. I realize we see these things as 'minor sins', but I am reminded of the story of Cain and Abel. Most people know Cain and Abel were brothers, and the first children of Adam and Eve. Cain was a farmer while Abel tended flocks. When it came time to give an offering to God (After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and before Christ was crucified, it was necessary to give an offering for repentance of sin), Abel chose to give the best of the firstborn of his flock, while Cain simply brought some of the crops he was unlikely to use. Thus, Cain commited the sin of irreverance for God. When God looked favorably on Abel's offering and not on Cain's, Cain became jealous and angry. (thus comitting another sin) It was at this point, God said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? <b>But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."</b> Obviously Cain did not listen because as we all know, he ended up attacking Abel and killing him. (Genesis 4:1-8)
Through this story we understand why a place like Hell is necessary, not as a punishment but a consequence. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said, "Now that they have this knowledge, they must not be able to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3;22) In order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, we must absolve ourselves of all sin; not only must we be without a sinful thought in our head, but we must also forsake even the knowledge of sin so that a sinful thought cannot enter into our head ever again. (Matthew 18:3)
Naturally, that is pretty much impossible. That is where Jesus comes in. That is not to say we are all automatically saved just because Jesus died for us, however. We must also come humbly with a repentant heart which not only acknowledges sin, but also wishes to wash it away. If someone is "on the fence" about God, then do they acknowledge all sin? They may not even be conscious of all sin!
Going back to Romans, <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>How, then can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:14-15 <hr></blockquote>
I realize the next logical question is "What about people who have never heard of God?" Paul in fact answers that question in the next few verses, but it is an answer which requires faith in order to accept, so I'm not going to bother with it.
Last thing, you brought up the death-bed conversion thing. Yeah, it seems unfair for a rapist and murderer to turn to God at the last second and go to heaven. Thing is, when they turn to God, they are no longer a rapist and murder. They are "born-again." I'm sure we've all been close someone who has screwed up in their lives. I think the best example that most of us has had to deal with is alchoholism or drug addiction. Now, when these people turn their lives around, what is the right thing for us to do? Should we hold a grudge and lock them out of our lives as punishment forever? Nobody will win in that situation. During their addiction didn't we ache for that person to change? Wouldn't we have done anything to set them on the right track again? By welcoming them back, however, forgetting the past and begining a new life we lose that pain and are overjoyed. (Matthew 18:10-14)
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i>
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.<hr></blockquote>
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God? I thin kmerit has a lot to do with what happens to you in the afterlife. I think by saying you believe in God is the easy way out to heavan. You could commit crimes and sins all your life, but before you die you say you believe in God, and then what - you go to heavan? I don't think that's right. What about all the people who live a right and honourable life, but are on the fence about God and religion, and don't necessarily have God in their heart? - does that mean they are going to Hell?<hr></blockquote>
You're misinterpreting the scripture. It isn't enough to simply believe in God, we also have to do God's will. As it says in James,
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
<b>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.</b> You believe there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder. James 2:14-19<hr></blockquote>
To say (as the anon. poster said) that Jesus is the easy way out is ignorant. Faith is not a passive thought you can just keep in the back of your mind. When the Bible says we are free in Christ, it is saying we are free from sin; it is not saying we are free to do as we please.
As for the second part of you question, the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) I realize this is strictly a Christian belief so it does not hold a lot of weight with anyone else, but it explains why we say we are saved by faith <blockquote>Quote<br><hr> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8<hr></blockquote>
Now, when people think of sin, they commonly think of murder, rape, theft, etc., however, people forget such things as envy, pride, and lacking reverance for God are also sins. I realize we see these things as 'minor sins', but I am reminded of the story of Cain and Abel. Most people know Cain and Abel were brothers, and the first children of Adam and Eve. Cain was a farmer while Abel tended flocks. When it came time to give an offering to God (After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and before Christ was crucified, it was necessary to give an offering for repentance of sin), Abel chose to give the best of the firstborn of his flock, while Cain simply brought some of the crops he was unlikely to use. Thus, Cain commited the sin of irreverance for God. When God looked favorably on Abel's offering and not on Cain's, Cain became jealous and angry. (thus comitting another sin) It was at this point, God said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? <b>But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."</b> Obviously Cain did not listen because as we all know, he ended up attacking Abel and killing him. (Genesis 4:1-8)
Through this story we understand why a place like Hell is necessary, not as a punishment but a consequence. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God said, "Now that they have this knowledge, they must not be able to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3;22) In order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, we must absolve ourselves of all sin; not only must we be without a sinful thought in our head, but we must also forsake even the knowledge of sin so that a sinful thought cannot enter into our head ever again. (Matthew 18:3)
Naturally, that is pretty much impossible. That is where Jesus comes in. That is not to say we are all automatically saved just because Jesus died for us, however. We must also come humbly with a repentant heart which not only acknowledges sin, but also wishes to wash it away. If someone is "on the fence" about God, then do they acknowledge all sin? They may not even be conscious of all sin!
Going back to Romans, <blockquote>Quote<br><hr>How, then can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? Romans 10:14-15 <hr></blockquote>
I realize the next logical question is "What about people who have never heard of God?" Paul in fact answers that question in the next few verses, but it is an answer which requires faith in order to accept, so I'm not going to bother with it.
Last thing, you brought up the death-bed conversion thing. Yeah, it seems unfair for a rapist and murderer to turn to God at the last second and go to heaven. Thing is, when they turn to God, they are no longer a rapist and murder. They are "born-again." I'm sure we've all been close someone who has screwed up in their lives. I think the best example that most of us has had to deal with is alchoholism or drug addiction. Now, when these people turn their lives around, what is the right thing for us to do? Should we hold a grudge and lock them out of our lives as punishment forever? Nobody will win in that situation. During their addiction didn't we ache for that person to change? Wouldn't we have done anything to set them on the right track again? By welcoming them back, however, forgetting the past and begining a new life we lose that pain and are overjoyed. (Matthew 18:10-14)
coltsfan715
New member
I normally do not get involved in talks about religion because my beliefs are widespread across many different religions. Over the years I have come to the belief that no single religion has all of the answers and that each holds a small piece of the puzzle. No one is meant to know everything except GOD and saying that one religion - which though created to worship GOD are essentially created by man - can be 100% right is contradictory of that belief to me. I am sure that will cause some problems for people reading this that are strongly devoted to one religion or another. I do not think you are wrong for believing one way or another so please do not think that is what I am implying. I was just stating my belief. I do believe in GOD and I do believe that God sent his Son to die on the cross etc. I just do not feel that because that belief of mine is Christian in nature that every other belief I have must fall into Christianity or the Southern Baptist sect - which is how I was raised.
I do not believe that every scripture should be taken literally because it was written by the hand of man - though said to be the Word of God - I am a bit cynical and think that every man has a hidden agenda and what was to keep the men receiving God's word from altering the true meaning. Also the farther removed form the source you get the more varied the story becomes - so if things were passed verbally through generations who is to say that the story wasn't altered some. Also there are rumors of their being books left out of the Bible (such as Thomas, Jubilees etc.), who made the decision that these books did not belong? They have been found and seen to exist, so why were they not included. I am only saying these things to show why I do not take the Bible literally. I think that the Bible is a guide, and I think it is and can be helpful to each and every person who reads it, if they are reading it to help themselves spiritually/religiously. I have not read the entire Bible, but I have read many parts at different times in my life. I read parts of the Bible as a young adult and I benefited from the words within because I related them to my life and was then told by members within my church that I was wrong and that GOD knew what he meant when he wrote the Bible and that it was not open to interpretation. Honestly - that was the last day I went to church; I was 16. I have never stopped believing and trying to better myself, I just do not think it is the place of any one man or woman to say how I should worship or what I should gain from reading the Bible and believing in GOD.
I am sure some will see the way I believe as me having "prostituted" or "compromised", in words used earlier in this thread, God. I believe what I believe, which I will not go into further at this time, I just wanted to post a little info on my belief before I got into the main reason for my post.
My main reason for posting was to post about Liz's comment:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Quote
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Originally posted by: Anonymous
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.
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I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God?
</end quote></div>
When I read that, I started thinking about how I wrestled with that thought and idea alot in my teens. I didn't understand how someone could lead a totally corrupt life then seconds before they die could say I am sorry GOD please forgive me - I accept you into my heart and I accept Jesus as my savior etc etc. and that all would be forgiven. This is how I have come to see that though. I truly feel that if someone makes amens and asks for forgiveness and accepts God/Jesus or whatever they believe into their life they are forgiven by God. The catch - they have to actually believe it. They can not just say it to appease the people around them - they have to truly deep within their heart and soul believe what they are saying and seek forgiveness. Otherwise it is meaningless, the only problem with that is no one can truly know what the intention of what that person says is except the person who says it and God (or the greater power that the person believes in). I think it is difficult sometimes for everyone to let go in a situation where we do not and can not know everything and to accept things to be a certain way without knowing for certain. I feel you have to have Faith that everyone will end up in their rightful place - regardless of whether or not they sinned (we all do - IMO) and regardless of how "large" the sin was and whether or not they say or do not say and announce their belief in GOD/Jesus/Mohamed (sp?) and so on.
I have gone on long enough so I will stop now. I just wanted to share my opinion on the problem that Liz mentioned she had with that Christian belief. I think it is awesome that this thread has been posted and has continued and hope that it continues further. I find religion very fascinating. The different beliefs people abide by and follow.
Have a good day,
Lindsey
I do not believe that every scripture should be taken literally because it was written by the hand of man - though said to be the Word of God - I am a bit cynical and think that every man has a hidden agenda and what was to keep the men receiving God's word from altering the true meaning. Also the farther removed form the source you get the more varied the story becomes - so if things were passed verbally through generations who is to say that the story wasn't altered some. Also there are rumors of their being books left out of the Bible (such as Thomas, Jubilees etc.), who made the decision that these books did not belong? They have been found and seen to exist, so why were they not included. I am only saying these things to show why I do not take the Bible literally. I think that the Bible is a guide, and I think it is and can be helpful to each and every person who reads it, if they are reading it to help themselves spiritually/religiously. I have not read the entire Bible, but I have read many parts at different times in my life. I read parts of the Bible as a young adult and I benefited from the words within because I related them to my life and was then told by members within my church that I was wrong and that GOD knew what he meant when he wrote the Bible and that it was not open to interpretation. Honestly - that was the last day I went to church; I was 16. I have never stopped believing and trying to better myself, I just do not think it is the place of any one man or woman to say how I should worship or what I should gain from reading the Bible and believing in GOD.
I am sure some will see the way I believe as me having "prostituted" or "compromised", in words used earlier in this thread, God. I believe what I believe, which I will not go into further at this time, I just wanted to post a little info on my belief before I got into the main reason for my post.
My main reason for posting was to post about Liz's comment:
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Anonymous
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate to say it, but this is why I am not a Christian. What that statement is saying is that so long as believe in God, you will be saved. So does that mean that all the criminals, the murderers and rapists will all go to heavan because they simply believe in God?
</end quote></div>
When I read that, I started thinking about how I wrestled with that thought and idea alot in my teens. I didn't understand how someone could lead a totally corrupt life then seconds before they die could say I am sorry GOD please forgive me - I accept you into my heart and I accept Jesus as my savior etc etc. and that all would be forgiven. This is how I have come to see that though. I truly feel that if someone makes amens and asks for forgiveness and accepts God/Jesus or whatever they believe into their life they are forgiven by God. The catch - they have to actually believe it. They can not just say it to appease the people around them - they have to truly deep within their heart and soul believe what they are saying and seek forgiveness. Otherwise it is meaningless, the only problem with that is no one can truly know what the intention of what that person says is except the person who says it and God (or the greater power that the person believes in). I think it is difficult sometimes for everyone to let go in a situation where we do not and can not know everything and to accept things to be a certain way without knowing for certain. I feel you have to have Faith that everyone will end up in their rightful place - regardless of whether or not they sinned (we all do - IMO) and regardless of how "large" the sin was and whether or not they say or do not say and announce their belief in GOD/Jesus/Mohamed (sp?) and so on.
I have gone on long enough so I will stop now. I just wanted to share my opinion on the problem that Liz mentioned she had with that Christian belief. I think it is awesome that this thread has been posted and has continued and hope that it continues further. I find religion very fascinating. The different beliefs people abide by and follow.
Have a good day,
Lindsey
Mockingbird
New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>coltsfan715</b></i>
I do not believe that every scripture should be taken literally because it was written by the hand of man - though said to be the Word of God - I am a bit cynical and think that every man has a hidden agenda and what was to keep the men receiving God's word from altering the true meaning. </end quote></div>
Really, it comes down to a matter of faith. Do you think God would choose a man to take down His word if the man was going to corrupt it? Even if the man did start to corrupt it, don't you think God would have told the man to stop?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Also the farther removed form the source you get the more varied the story becomes - so if things were passed verbally through generations who is to say that the story wasn't altered some</end quote></div>
First of all, the Bible was not passed down verbally through the generations, it was written down. Also, we still have some of the original source materials of the Bible, so it is not really far removed from its source.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Also there are rumors of their being books left out of the Bible (such as Thomas, Jubilees etc.), who made the decision that these books did not belong? They have been found and seen to exist, so why were they not included</end quote></div>
The term for such books is apocrypha. The reason they are not included in the Bible is because their authenticity is questionable.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I just do not think it is the place of any one man or woman to say how I should worship or what I should gain from reading the Bible and believing in GOD. </end quote></div>
So are you saying it is your place, or that it is God's place?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>No one is meant to know everything except GOD and saying that one religion - which though created to worship GOD are essentially created by man - can be 100% right is contradictory of that belief to me.</end quote></div>
Except that no one believes their religion came from man, they believe their religion came from God.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> do believe in GOD and I do believe that God sent his Son to die on the cross etc. I just do not feel that because that belief of mine is Christian in nature that every other belief I have must fall into Christianity </end quote></div>
So, you believe Christ was the messiah, but he wasn't 100% correct in his teachings? Or are you saying the teachings of Christ became muddled due to man's agenda and its passage through the generations?
I am not attacking you, just pointing out some things you may want to do a little more research on. I used to believe a lot of the same things at one point. When I questioned my beliefs, however, I found they didn't really hold up... That's just my own experience, though.
I do not believe that every scripture should be taken literally because it was written by the hand of man - though said to be the Word of God - I am a bit cynical and think that every man has a hidden agenda and what was to keep the men receiving God's word from altering the true meaning. </end quote></div>
Really, it comes down to a matter of faith. Do you think God would choose a man to take down His word if the man was going to corrupt it? Even if the man did start to corrupt it, don't you think God would have told the man to stop?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Also the farther removed form the source you get the more varied the story becomes - so if things were passed verbally through generations who is to say that the story wasn't altered some</end quote></div>
First of all, the Bible was not passed down verbally through the generations, it was written down. Also, we still have some of the original source materials of the Bible, so it is not really far removed from its source.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Also there are rumors of their being books left out of the Bible (such as Thomas, Jubilees etc.), who made the decision that these books did not belong? They have been found and seen to exist, so why were they not included</end quote></div>
The term for such books is apocrypha. The reason they are not included in the Bible is because their authenticity is questionable.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I just do not think it is the place of any one man or woman to say how I should worship or what I should gain from reading the Bible and believing in GOD. </end quote></div>
So are you saying it is your place, or that it is God's place?
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>No one is meant to know everything except GOD and saying that one religion - which though created to worship GOD are essentially created by man - can be 100% right is contradictory of that belief to me.</end quote></div>
Except that no one believes their religion came from man, they believe their religion came from God.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> do believe in GOD and I do believe that God sent his Son to die on the cross etc. I just do not feel that because that belief of mine is Christian in nature that every other belief I have must fall into Christianity </end quote></div>
So, you believe Christ was the messiah, but he wasn't 100% correct in his teachings? Or are you saying the teachings of Christ became muddled due to man's agenda and its passage through the generations?
I am not attacking you, just pointing out some things you may want to do a little more research on. I used to believe a lot of the same things at one point. When I questioned my beliefs, however, I found they didn't really hold up... That's just my own experience, though.
coltsfan715
New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Really, it comes down to a matter of faith. Do you think God would choose a man to take down His word if the man was going to corrupt it? Even if the man did start to corrupt it, don't you think God would have told the man to stop? </end quote></div>
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First of all, the Bible was not passed down verbally through the generations, it was written down. Also, we still have some of the original source materials of the Bible, so it is not really far removed from its source.</end quote></div>
I said <u>IF</u> it was passed down verbally, because to my knowledge things were said by God and written at that time, but there may be instances where that was not the case. It is not a matter of saying the Bible is right or wrong, it is just that it is possible and <u>IF</u> that were the case it could be varied from what it was originally suppossed to be.
Also the Bible as many and most people read it today has been translated over and over again. So show me the original text and a word for word translation(because there are some words in every language that do not translate directly into other languages) or if you can read the original text/language the Bible was written in then that is a different story. I can not so I rely on the translations of it in the many forms we see today. So in a way it has been passed on - not by word of mouth but within translations which could have been unintentionally changed if the person/people translating it came across words for which there are no definitive meaning.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> The term for such books is apocrypha. The reason they are not included in the Bible is because their authenticity is questionable. </end quote></div>
I understand the reasons we are given as to why they are not in the Bible, but my question stands ... Who made the decision or determined that their authenticity was questionable and who decided that the books that were included were authentic?(an answer is not necessary unless you do know how the decision was made and why and who made it otherwise it is just a thought I have wondered) Also there are countries and civilzation within Africa that value the books missing and hold them in some regard within their religious practices or teachings (I can not remember the names of the countries at present). My point being that I guess the opinion of the authenticity of those books varies.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So are you saying it is your place, or that it is God's place? </end quote></div>
Taken in context of what I had written in my prior post that comment was made in reference to the people within my church that told me that the benefit that I received when I read the Bible came from a misinterpretation of the Bible and that God knew what he meant when he wrote the Bible and that it was not open to interpretation. My interpretation is what helps me to grow closer to God, I do not take the words written in the Bible verbatim I DO take them as the word of God, but I do not gain anything from reading it and taking everything literally. If you do then you do and that is what works for you and that is how God's word was meant to help YOU, but that does not mean that is how his word was meant to help ME (IMO). People are different and they interpret things differently, they are helped in different ways, they have different problems - which they handle in different ways. I think it is important that every person though different has the ability to look at the same book and pull from it what they are seeking at that time in their lives. I do not think it is right for one person - in my case at the time it was my sunday school teachers - to tell anyone that they are wrong for believing a certain way or that they are wrong and that a passage/story from the Bible that had helped them get through a troubling time in their life was not meant to do that - it was meant to be read literally or meant to be interpreted one way and only one way and you were meant to gain only one thing from that passage. I can read a passage from the Bible today and gain one thing from it but read it 5 years from now when I am in a different set of circumstances and gain something different. That is just how I believe. I do not think that I am or was trying to tell anyone how to believe. All I was doing was saying how I believed or what I believed. So I really don't get your question.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Except that no one believes their religion came from man, they believe their religion came from God. </end quote></div>
I believe that the basis for religion was given by God (meaning in the Bible and other religious/holy texts) and that religion was <b><u>inspired</u></b> by God, that is why there are so many. If religion was created by God then why are there so many different religions - if God knew what He meant when He wrote the Bible and it is supposed to be taken literally then why wouldn't He "create" one religion He obviously knows what He wants and if He doesn't want people interpreting His word in more than one way why would He create so many different religions and ways to interpret His word. I think that when people first began worshipping that honoring God was their intention, but I don't think that everything that goes on within churches and religions is God's direct making - <u>that is my opinion </u>
My main reason for posting prior was to give my opinion about what Liz addressed in her post. I wasn't trying to push my belief on anyone -If anyone felt I was doing that I am sorry that wasn't my intention- I was simply giving a little background on my belief. The intention of that was to show that I am not trying to ram my idea down her throat. That I myself have beliefs about religion that are not exactly mainstream, because I do not believe that any one religion is right or wrong. I have a difficult time accepting that Only one religion is correct and everyone else is going to "H e l l". I was taught that the majority of my childhood at the church I went to - I was raised Southern Baptist. I also saw the corruption within that church as I got into High School it was so rampant and obvious it was disgusting. I saw people within my church ridicule people that followed other religions; they would ask the person a question about their religion and then make fun or constantly try to undermine what they were trying to explain. I felt that I was being brought down by attending that church - I was letting myself be sheltered and not educating myself on how to better myself for God - instead of my religion. I think that God is who I need to answer too, no one else. I stopped attending that church. I have read of, studied and spoken about/of other religions in classes and on my own and developed my belief system which is ultimately between myself and God.
That is the beauty of religion and God he can be there for people in different ways and he loves you no matter what. You can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe and so long as we are trying to better ourselves/our soul/spirit for Him it is working towards the same goal.
*I use the word God because that is the "Higher Being" I believe in I am not trying to take anything away from people following other religions or that believe in Gods that differ from mine.
Lindsey
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>First of all, the Bible was not passed down verbally through the generations, it was written down. Also, we still have some of the original source materials of the Bible, so it is not really far removed from its source.</end quote></div>
I said <u>IF</u> it was passed down verbally, because to my knowledge things were said by God and written at that time, but there may be instances where that was not the case. It is not a matter of saying the Bible is right or wrong, it is just that it is possible and <u>IF</u> that were the case it could be varied from what it was originally suppossed to be.
Also the Bible as many and most people read it today has been translated over and over again. So show me the original text and a word for word translation(because there are some words in every language that do not translate directly into other languages) or if you can read the original text/language the Bible was written in then that is a different story. I can not so I rely on the translations of it in the many forms we see today. So in a way it has been passed on - not by word of mouth but within translations which could have been unintentionally changed if the person/people translating it came across words for which there are no definitive meaning.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> The term for such books is apocrypha. The reason they are not included in the Bible is because their authenticity is questionable. </end quote></div>
I understand the reasons we are given as to why they are not in the Bible, but my question stands ... Who made the decision or determined that their authenticity was questionable and who decided that the books that were included were authentic?(an answer is not necessary unless you do know how the decision was made and why and who made it otherwise it is just a thought I have wondered) Also there are countries and civilzation within Africa that value the books missing and hold them in some regard within their religious practices or teachings (I can not remember the names of the countries at present). My point being that I guess the opinion of the authenticity of those books varies.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote> So are you saying it is your place, or that it is God's place? </end quote></div>
Taken in context of what I had written in my prior post that comment was made in reference to the people within my church that told me that the benefit that I received when I read the Bible came from a misinterpretation of the Bible and that God knew what he meant when he wrote the Bible and that it was not open to interpretation. My interpretation is what helps me to grow closer to God, I do not take the words written in the Bible verbatim I DO take them as the word of God, but I do not gain anything from reading it and taking everything literally. If you do then you do and that is what works for you and that is how God's word was meant to help YOU, but that does not mean that is how his word was meant to help ME (IMO). People are different and they interpret things differently, they are helped in different ways, they have different problems - which they handle in different ways. I think it is important that every person though different has the ability to look at the same book and pull from it what they are seeking at that time in their lives. I do not think it is right for one person - in my case at the time it was my sunday school teachers - to tell anyone that they are wrong for believing a certain way or that they are wrong and that a passage/story from the Bible that had helped them get through a troubling time in their life was not meant to do that - it was meant to be read literally or meant to be interpreted one way and only one way and you were meant to gain only one thing from that passage. I can read a passage from the Bible today and gain one thing from it but read it 5 years from now when I am in a different set of circumstances and gain something different. That is just how I believe. I do not think that I am or was trying to tell anyone how to believe. All I was doing was saying how I believed or what I believed. So I really don't get your question.
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Except that no one believes their religion came from man, they believe their religion came from God. </end quote></div>
I believe that the basis for religion was given by God (meaning in the Bible and other religious/holy texts) and that religion was <b><u>inspired</u></b> by God, that is why there are so many. If religion was created by God then why are there so many different religions - if God knew what He meant when He wrote the Bible and it is supposed to be taken literally then why wouldn't He "create" one religion He obviously knows what He wants and if He doesn't want people interpreting His word in more than one way why would He create so many different religions and ways to interpret His word. I think that when people first began worshipping that honoring God was their intention, but I don't think that everything that goes on within churches and religions is God's direct making - <u>that is my opinion </u>
My main reason for posting prior was to give my opinion about what Liz addressed in her post. I wasn't trying to push my belief on anyone -If anyone felt I was doing that I am sorry that wasn't my intention- I was simply giving a little background on my belief. The intention of that was to show that I am not trying to ram my idea down her throat. That I myself have beliefs about religion that are not exactly mainstream, because I do not believe that any one religion is right or wrong. I have a difficult time accepting that Only one religion is correct and everyone else is going to "H e l l". I was taught that the majority of my childhood at the church I went to - I was raised Southern Baptist. I also saw the corruption within that church as I got into High School it was so rampant and obvious it was disgusting. I saw people within my church ridicule people that followed other religions; they would ask the person a question about their religion and then make fun or constantly try to undermine what they were trying to explain. I felt that I was being brought down by attending that church - I was letting myself be sheltered and not educating myself on how to better myself for God - instead of my religion. I think that God is who I need to answer too, no one else. I stopped attending that church. I have read of, studied and spoken about/of other religions in classes and on my own and developed my belief system which is ultimately between myself and God.
That is the beauty of religion and God he can be there for people in different ways and he loves you no matter what. You can believe what you believe and I can believe what I believe and so long as we are trying to better ourselves/our soul/spirit for Him it is working towards the same goal.
*I use the word God because that is the "Higher Being" I believe in I am not trying to take anything away from people following other religions or that believe in Gods that differ from mine.
Lindsey
Scarlett81
New member
Hey Guys,
I've stayed away from the religion section cause I forgot it was here! I've found reading some of your posts fascinating. I can't figure how to do that quote thing-so it's frustrating me! Anyway-Liz-your post at the top of the page I agree with 100%, and several others.
I don't go by what "religion" teaches, but just the plain Bible teaches. Even contemporary churches acknowledge that most churches have altered the Bible to accomodate their teachings over a 2000 yr span. So I go by the direct Greek and Hebrew translations that I feel are accurate, and not doctored by years of traditon.
Anyway, I'm a very spiritual person, and an avid Bible student too. I actually do volunteer Bible education when I'm well enough.
My study of the Bible has led me to the belief that there is no such thing as automatic heaven, if you just believe. (again-just sharing my beliefs-not trying to offend anyone!) But-if you look in James chapter 2:14, it says:
"What does it profit my brothers, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith alone save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."
To me that means-a person does not 'earn' salvation automatically by 'believing'. (or actions), But- if a person has sincere, genuine faith, they will live according to it. A life of obedience to God and Jesus commandments, and be a loving person.
I also believe that God does and can have the power to destroy wicked people, but I do not believe that Hell is a true Bible teaching. I believe that Hell is a man made teaching, and comes from very old non-christian beliefs (myths) that got incorporated into Christian religons over the years. Even modern churches and scholars have admitted this. I do believe that the Bible speaks of a figurative place called Hades-which is the Biblical term for death/the grave. But, it is not in God to torment people and burn their bodies forever.
To prove my point (of course I don't literally mean prove it-you can believe what you want, I'm just sharing) about "faith" in relation to being saved...just think about this: If Adam hadn't sinned-where would he be right now? Here, alive. Because the scriptures say that God's original purpose for Adam and Eve was to live on the earth, fill it with children, care for themselves and the earth, and they would be blessed with perfect health and living forever. That was God's original purpose.
So when Adam sinned that broke God's promise and he lost his perfection and hope of everlasting life, and he eventually grew old and died. Sure-Adam probably still "believed" in God-but his actions didn't show that.
I've stayed away from the religion section cause I forgot it was here! I've found reading some of your posts fascinating. I can't figure how to do that quote thing-so it's frustrating me! Anyway-Liz-your post at the top of the page I agree with 100%, and several others.
I don't go by what "religion" teaches, but just the plain Bible teaches. Even contemporary churches acknowledge that most churches have altered the Bible to accomodate their teachings over a 2000 yr span. So I go by the direct Greek and Hebrew translations that I feel are accurate, and not doctored by years of traditon.
Anyway, I'm a very spiritual person, and an avid Bible student too. I actually do volunteer Bible education when I'm well enough.
My study of the Bible has led me to the belief that there is no such thing as automatic heaven, if you just believe. (again-just sharing my beliefs-not trying to offend anyone!) But-if you look in James chapter 2:14, it says:
"What does it profit my brothers, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith alone save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."
To me that means-a person does not 'earn' salvation automatically by 'believing'. (or actions), But- if a person has sincere, genuine faith, they will live according to it. A life of obedience to God and Jesus commandments, and be a loving person.
I also believe that God does and can have the power to destroy wicked people, but I do not believe that Hell is a true Bible teaching. I believe that Hell is a man made teaching, and comes from very old non-christian beliefs (myths) that got incorporated into Christian religons over the years. Even modern churches and scholars have admitted this. I do believe that the Bible speaks of a figurative place called Hades-which is the Biblical term for death/the grave. But, it is not in God to torment people and burn their bodies forever.
To prove my point (of course I don't literally mean prove it-you can believe what you want, I'm just sharing) about "faith" in relation to being saved...just think about this: If Adam hadn't sinned-where would he be right now? Here, alive. Because the scriptures say that God's original purpose for Adam and Eve was to live on the earth, fill it with children, care for themselves and the earth, and they would be blessed with perfect health and living forever. That was God's original purpose.
So when Adam sinned that broke God's promise and he lost his perfection and hope of everlasting life, and he eventually grew old and died. Sure-Adam probably still "believed" in God-but his actions didn't show that.
Mockingbird
New member
lindsey, don't get defensive. All I'm saying is look into that stuff. You said those were reasons you believe the things you do, I was simply saying if you look into them a little more, you may see things differently, because that's what happened to me. If you don't want to, then just tell yourself I'm ignorant and self-righteous and ignore me.
To christian, hell is simply a word meaning consequence of sin (same as hades). When you say you don't believe in hell, you make it sound like you do not believe there is a consequence for sin. Just something you might want to be careful of in the furture.
To christian, hell is simply a word meaning consequence of sin (same as hades). When you say you don't believe in hell, you make it sound like you do not believe there is a consequence for sin. Just something you might want to be careful of in the furture.
Scarlett81
New member
As in the word hell-I believe the true word the Bible uses is Hades. Meaning, I believe that the original word the Bible used is Hades, not hell. And, I believe the true meaning of that word is death. Not a pit of torment, which is a teaching that was incorporated from Greek mythology and other myhts of the Greco-Roman era.
Now when people die, and they have lived according to the principles in the Bible, they hope for a reward for their faith and life of acting on that faith, right?
So I feel, through study of the Bible, that the opposite of that is simply death. God simply says, you lost your chance of reward, and that's it. The literal translation of the Greek word Hades means grave. The actual grave a body is put in. And to us humans, a grave symbolizes death. So the consequences for sin are heavy indeed. They are not only displeasing God, and losing his favor, but they are losing the reward HE offers all humans, and they are completely put to death. No afterlife at all.
Think of Adam and Eve, when they disobeyed, God didn't say-ok now guys, you've lost your chance and you're going to hell forever. He said you lost your chance at everlasting life......and now you will eventually grow old and die. Which they did. And now they're dust.
That's my meaning. I wanted to clarify it. I should have stated more in my original post, but I didn't want to bore anyone and go on and on.
Now when people die, and they have lived according to the principles in the Bible, they hope for a reward for their faith and life of acting on that faith, right?
So I feel, through study of the Bible, that the opposite of that is simply death. God simply says, you lost your chance of reward, and that's it. The literal translation of the Greek word Hades means grave. The actual grave a body is put in. And to us humans, a grave symbolizes death. So the consequences for sin are heavy indeed. They are not only displeasing God, and losing his favor, but they are losing the reward HE offers all humans, and they are completely put to death. No afterlife at all.
Think of Adam and Eve, when they disobeyed, God didn't say-ok now guys, you've lost your chance and you're going to hell forever. He said you lost your chance at everlasting life......and now you will eventually grow old and die. Which they did. And now they're dust.
That's my meaning. I wanted to clarify it. I should have stated more in my original post, but I didn't want to bore anyone and go on and on.
Scarlett81
New member
Mockingbird-
Just wanted to add 1 more thing. To you maybe hell is a figurative place that just means consequence. But to many people hell is a literal place somewhere.
So I really couldn't tell your meaning of it, and there's so many people on here.
Have a good morning.
Just wanted to add 1 more thing. To you maybe hell is a figurative place that just means consequence. But to many people hell is a literal place somewhere.
So I really couldn't tell your meaning of it, and there's so many people on here.
Have a good morning.
Mockingbird
New member
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Scarlett81</b></i> To you maybe hell is a figurative place that just means consequence. But to many people hell is a literal place somewhere.</end quote></div>
whether I or anyone else believes hell is figurative or literal is irrelevant. Either way, the word hell=consequence of sin. I was just warning you the way you worded your first post is likely to get taken out of context and set some people off in a major way. (I almost did it myself, but fortunately I took a closer look before I responded.)
whether I or anyone else believes hell is figurative or literal is irrelevant. Either way, the word hell=consequence of sin. I was just warning you the way you worded your first post is likely to get taken out of context and set some people off in a major way. (I almost did it myself, but fortunately I took a closer look before I responded.)
Christian,
You didn't ask but here's my 2 cents, I'm not real sure how to use quotes, so I hope this works!
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Scarlett81</b></i>
<i>As in the word hell-I believe the true word the Bible uses is Hades. Meaning, I believe that the original word the Bible used is Hades, not hell. And, I believe the true meaning of that word is death. Not a pit of torment, which is a teaching that was incorporated from Greek mythology and other myhts of the Greco-Roman era. </i>
I'm sure you've heard the story of Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Where the rich man was 'tormented in this flame' in Hades and begged for Lazarus to dip his finger in water & cool his tongue......
This is one of the examples from my version of the Bible where it depicts hell or Hades as a place of torment and/or fire. Possibly your version is different??
<i>So I feel, through study of the Bible, that the opposite of that is simply death. God simply says, you lost your chance of reward, and that's it. The literal translation of the Greek word Hades means grave. The actual grave a body is put in. And to us humans, a grave symbolizes death. So the consequences for sin are heavy indeed. They are not only displeasing God, and losing his favor, but they are losing the reward HE offers all humans, and they are completely put to death. No afterlife at all. </i>
We all have sin in our lives, so does this mean we all will just die & that's it?
My only thing with this theory is; in this case, everlasting death isn't that bad for people that don't believe in God they probably could care less if they have an after life or not, so where's the incentive for accepting God/Christ?
Again, just sharing my view/belief, not trying to offend. One day we'll all find out what the "truth" is.
It's neat to hear the different views.
You didn't ask but here's my 2 cents, I'm not real sure how to use quotes, so I hope this works!
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><i>Originally posted by: <b>Scarlett81</b></i>
<i>As in the word hell-I believe the true word the Bible uses is Hades. Meaning, I believe that the original word the Bible used is Hades, not hell. And, I believe the true meaning of that word is death. Not a pit of torment, which is a teaching that was incorporated from Greek mythology and other myhts of the Greco-Roman era. </i>
I'm sure you've heard the story of Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Where the rich man was 'tormented in this flame' in Hades and begged for Lazarus to dip his finger in water & cool his tongue......
This is one of the examples from my version of the Bible where it depicts hell or Hades as a place of torment and/or fire. Possibly your version is different??
<i>So I feel, through study of the Bible, that the opposite of that is simply death. God simply says, you lost your chance of reward, and that's it. The literal translation of the Greek word Hades means grave. The actual grave a body is put in. And to us humans, a grave symbolizes death. So the consequences for sin are heavy indeed. They are not only displeasing God, and losing his favor, but they are losing the reward HE offers all humans, and they are completely put to death. No afterlife at all. </i>
We all have sin in our lives, so does this mean we all will just die & that's it?
My only thing with this theory is; in this case, everlasting death isn't that bad for people that don't believe in God they probably could care less if they have an after life or not, so where's the incentive for accepting God/Christ?
Again, just sharing my view/belief, not trying to offend. One day we'll all find out what the "truth" is.
It's neat to hear the different views.
Scarlett81
New member
It is neat to hear the different views. And discuss them like adults!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">
To answer your question, -I haven't figured out how to use that quote thing- 'since we all have sin in our lives, does it mean we all die?" Well, my faith teaches that yes we all by inherited nature sin, but our redeemer for that sin is Jesus sacrifice. Now, my faith teaches there is a difference bewtween inherited sin we all have, and the willfull practice of sin. Humans aren't perfect, they lost perfection b/c of Adam and Eve's sin. So we all have that with us. That is the "sin" that we can be forgiven of if we are obedient to God's commands. But the willfull practice of sin, repeated, unrepentant serious sin, is what God doesn't forgive. Because it's not sincere if it's repeated over and over again. Especially the gross sins of rape, murder, ect.
And maybe for someone who doesn't belive in God like you said, the punishment of death does not seem severe, or they just don't care. But if they don't believe in God or respect Him or whatever, then the prospect of His reward wouldn't matter to them either. See what I'm saying? They wouldn't care about God's rewards for His faithful people either.
Either way, I think we're all accountable for our individual selves and our faith, whatever that be. Nice sharing my beliefs with you. And nice hearing all the different ones, too. It's great to know that we can have these disscussions in a calm, controlled environment.
To answer your question, -I haven't figured out how to use that quote thing- 'since we all have sin in our lives, does it mean we all die?" Well, my faith teaches that yes we all by inherited nature sin, but our redeemer for that sin is Jesus sacrifice. Now, my faith teaches there is a difference bewtween inherited sin we all have, and the willfull practice of sin. Humans aren't perfect, they lost perfection b/c of Adam and Eve's sin. So we all have that with us. That is the "sin" that we can be forgiven of if we are obedient to God's commands. But the willfull practice of sin, repeated, unrepentant serious sin, is what God doesn't forgive. Because it's not sincere if it's repeated over and over again. Especially the gross sins of rape, murder, ect.
And maybe for someone who doesn't belive in God like you said, the punishment of death does not seem severe, or they just don't care. But if they don't believe in God or respect Him or whatever, then the prospect of His reward wouldn't matter to them either. See what I'm saying? They wouldn't care about God's rewards for His faithful people either.
Either way, I think we're all accountable for our individual selves and our faith, whatever that be. Nice sharing my beliefs with you. And nice hearing all the different ones, too. It's great to know that we can have these disscussions in a calm, controlled environment.
Hi, I'm 36 years old and just read your experience with Buddhism. I am a devote follower of *****. I am not a Catholic, Lutheran or any other specific religion. (I understand what you mean about straying from all the different beliefs) I am just a true follower of Jesus and His teachings. I think as kids growing up we are taught, and sometimes forced, to follow a specific religion and all the rules that don't really seem right. They may not even really have anything to do with following Jesus. However, there is real peace and comfort in meditating in God's word and being a follower of *****. It's hard to find time as a high school student to read the Bible, especially when you are forced to read and study so much every night. However, I spend 15 - 30 minutes per day and have found a true sense of peace, especially concerning my disease.
Also, you wrote " I always wondered why god would create so much pain and misery". If you study the scripture, you will get a better understanding that God does NOT create such pain and misery. He loves us so much. There is pain and misery in the world because we live in a sinful and broken world. It is our job as Christians to "punch holes in the darkness". When we reach out to God during pain and crisis, He will be there for us. There is always something we gain when we go through crisis. I have learned the most from the difficult and painful times in my life. Unfortunately, not everyone will "see what he will gain or the good that will come from the suffering", but if we remember that God loves us, we will someday fully understand. He will never leave us alone. As a 36-year old CF patient facing transplant, and a wife and mother of a 6-year old, I thank God every day for taking care of me and my family. I pray each and every day that my daughter will come to know Christ early in her life so that she can face the difficult and happy times with confidence and peace of mind.
If you don't mind, I will pray for clarity in your life. I think it is outstanding that you are questioning and seeking faith. I pray that you return to Jesus and his teachings. God bless you and your health. Kim
Also, you wrote " I always wondered why god would create so much pain and misery". If you study the scripture, you will get a better understanding that God does NOT create such pain and misery. He loves us so much. There is pain and misery in the world because we live in a sinful and broken world. It is our job as Christians to "punch holes in the darkness". When we reach out to God during pain and crisis, He will be there for us. There is always something we gain when we go through crisis. I have learned the most from the difficult and painful times in my life. Unfortunately, not everyone will "see what he will gain or the good that will come from the suffering", but if we remember that God loves us, we will someday fully understand. He will never leave us alone. As a 36-year old CF patient facing transplant, and a wife and mother of a 6-year old, I thank God every day for taking care of me and my family. I pray each and every day that my daughter will come to know Christ early in her life so that she can face the difficult and happy times with confidence and peace of mind.
If you don't mind, I will pray for clarity in your life. I think it is outstanding that you are questioning and seeking faith. I pray that you return to Jesus and his teachings. God bless you and your health. Kim
Scarlett81
New member
It was nice to read your comment, Kim.
I agree with you stating that God does not create the suffering we experience and witness. My faith-which for now I will also say is ******, <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> teaches that there are reasons we see such atrocity in the wolrd today. That its due to us living in a sinful state, and world. The scriptures say- "The whole world is lying in the power of the Wicked one."-1 John 5:19. Our faith teaches that 'wicked one' is Satan, and he has control over much of the world, as we obviously see around us. So it is he who causes these things. And yes, as you said-we have God to turn to for the answers. And they're there for us, if we ask Him. He provides the answers for us through an accurate study of the Bible. I always kind of think of the Bible as a letter from a loving father to his child. We are called God's children after all. And to me, I draw comfort from that. I view it as his personal message to me.
Regardless, with this particular topic, it makes me sad to see someone feel that they have to walk away from God, or their church or whatever their faith was. But in this world, and with the unfortunate corruption of even churches, I do truly understand why people have to walk away. I just would say to you or anyone, there is a huge difference between the Bible, and God and his son Jesus-and "religion". Maybe just going back to the basics, reading the comforting scriptures on your own, and deep prayer on your own. That's the important thing anyway, isn't it?
I agree with you stating that God does not create the suffering we experience and witness. My faith-which for now I will also say is ******, <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> teaches that there are reasons we see such atrocity in the wolrd today. That its due to us living in a sinful state, and world. The scriptures say- "The whole world is lying in the power of the Wicked one."-1 John 5:19. Our faith teaches that 'wicked one' is Satan, and he has control over much of the world, as we obviously see around us. So it is he who causes these things. And yes, as you said-we have God to turn to for the answers. And they're there for us, if we ask Him. He provides the answers for us through an accurate study of the Bible. I always kind of think of the Bible as a letter from a loving father to his child. We are called God's children after all. And to me, I draw comfort from that. I view it as his personal message to me.
Regardless, with this particular topic, it makes me sad to see someone feel that they have to walk away from God, or their church or whatever their faith was. But in this world, and with the unfortunate corruption of even churches, I do truly understand why people have to walk away. I just would say to you or anyone, there is a huge difference between the Bible, and God and his son Jesus-and "religion". Maybe just going back to the basics, reading the comforting scriptures on your own, and deep prayer on your own. That's the important thing anyway, isn't it?