walked away from God

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vmhoward

New member
I agree with you Lillith, this has been quite a debate to watch unfold. I usually dont get involved in religious debates as well, and I dont plan to in this case. I see where each of you has some genuine points that do raise merit. And I see where pain and life has hardened some of you to the point of not even caring for religion and God at all.

Personally, I dont go about trying to "sell" my faith to others, I rather like to treat everyone fairly and in love. To do unto others as I would have them do to me. If people would stop and think before they act sometimes they would see that it would be much easier if we all just thought about what we were doing before we did it. But I dont condemn others for what they do I just "suck it up and drive on". You cant go through life resenting everyone else or even God for things that "could have been" It just makes you and everyone around you miserable in the long run. Granted I am not perfect by any means and I have times when I feel that "poor me" attitude, but eventually I get out of the slump and remember that I am loved and that I have a purpose and I cant do what I am called to do if I am constantly arguing and bickering with everyone else, including God.

So it has been interesting to see this discussion. Who knows maybe it did help someone in someway to understand something. But Either way weather you are a Christian or a Jew or a Buddist or a Muslim. God made us all and we should love each other anyway. Its hard and we cant always like everyone but we can love the person God made with out liking the person they became. Does that make sence? Anyway.

Talk to you all soon!

Victoria
 
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Mockingbird

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i><br> I might have tackled it more carefully if I knew you meant to debate, but I thought you were genuinely curious. <hr></blockquote>

At first I was curious, but when you described it as a form of universalism, I guess I got carried away. here is the question i should have asked; What does the Talmud say about it? (I think that's where it comes from, right?) Are you saying the first law is forgivable because it comes from scripture, or that it comes from your own logic?

You don't have to answer. To be honest I am sort of curious exatly where it is, because I could not find it anywhere in the english translation I found, but the majority of sources I have seen say the Noahide code is not a form of universalism.

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>Everybody, whether they admit to it or not, has their own conception of God, usually based in what they were taught. <hr></blockquote>

I don't believe it has to be that way. I may not be 100% correct with my view of God, but I always strive to put my own conceptions/ideals/whatever behind and rely only on what is in scripture. Whenever two people who do this meet, their views are not all that much different. There may be a few things here and there, but instead of saying, "I believe it is this way because that makes sense to me," they say, "I believe it is this way because that scripture supports it."

I've only met a few of those people in my lifetime, and I am striving to be one of them. I guess I failed on this thread. Even though everything I said comes from scripture, I made it into a debate about beliefs, when I was originally trying to clarify what your scripture does and does not say.

As for the prostituting God comment I made, I meant it sincerely, though I was not directing it at any one person, nor was I saying it in anger. It is in fact a majority of the christian church itself that is my main cause of distress. I know I've been guilty of it myself, especially when I was beginning in my faith. I wanted to believe in universalism because I could not understand why God would send people to hell when I didn't think they deserved it. I could not acept that because I lacked faith, and so I ignored scripture and prostituted God into something I could accept. (If Fred wants a less ugly word, then 'comprimised') Even now I still don't understand it fully, but I realize it is supported by scripture, so I accept it and have faith there is a good reason for it.

Anyway, i am not trying to continue the debate, but I would like it if people would consider what I am saying. And also consider why I would do something such as betray Allie's trust in order to say it. What I said before about not losing anything; I said that in bitterness and it was not the truth.
 
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Mockingbird

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i><br> I might have tackled it more carefully if I knew you meant to debate, but I thought you were genuinely curious. <hr></blockquote>

At first I was curious, but when you described it as a form of universalism, I guess I got carried away. here is the question i should have asked; What does the Talmud say about it? (I think that's where it comes from, right?) Are you saying the first law is forgivable because it comes from scripture, or that it comes from your own logic?

You don't have to answer. To be honest I am sort of curious exatly where it is, because I could not find it anywhere in the english translation I found, but the majority of sources I have seen say the Noahide code is not a form of universalism.

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr>Everybody, whether they admit to it or not, has their own conception of God, usually based in what they were taught. <hr></blockquote>

I don't believe it has to be that way. I may not be 100% correct with my view of God, but I always strive to put my own conceptions/ideals/whatever behind and rely only on what is in scripture. Whenever two people who do this meet, their views are not all that much different. There may be a few things here and there, but instead of saying, "I believe it is this way because that makes sense to me," they say, "I believe it is this way because that scripture supports it."

I've only met a few of those people in my lifetime, and I am striving to be one of them. I guess I failed on this thread. Even though everything I said comes from scripture, I made it into a debate about beliefs, when I was originally trying to clarify what your scripture does and does not say.

As for the prostituting God comment I made, I meant it sincerely, though I was not directing it at any one person, nor was I saying it in anger. It is in fact a majority of the christian church itself that is my main cause of distress. I know I've been guilty of it myself, especially when I was beginning in my faith. I wanted to believe in universalism because I could not understand why God would send people to hell when I didn't think they deserved it. I could not acept that because I lacked faith, and so I ignored scripture and prostituted God into something I could accept. (If Fred wants a less ugly word, then 'comprimised') Even now I still don't understand it fully, but I realize it is supported by scripture, so I accept it and have faith there is a good reason for it.

Anyway, i am not trying to continue the debate, but I would like it if people would consider what I am saying. And also consider why I would do something such as betray Allie's trust in order to say it. What I said before about not losing anything; I said that in bitterness and it was not the truth.
 
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anonymous

New member
Mock, if your point is that the Noahide Code isn't especially "Christian-friendly," you're probably right. While it makes for "righteous gentiles," it seems to require them to give up whatever gods they might already have. You can say that Jesus is a manfiestation of the one God and not a different god, but then you still run into the "graven images" problem, which Christians evade by claiming that the incarnation of God as Christ established an "image" of God that could thenceforth be represented and revered. I doubt you'll find much in the Talmud or Midrash that resolves this, since it depends on a premise Jews don't accept. Nor should it necessarily be resolved, since it's at the heart of the fundamental difference between the two faiths. The more the merrier, I say. On the other hand, there are many still-observant Jewish thinkers who do interpret all of this more liberally, who argue for a kind of universalism or even a mystical God-man relationship that transcends the Law (see Buber, as I take him), even though they sometimes seem to jump through semantic hoops to do so. But it's definitely an interesting topic.

Q
 
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anonymous

New member
Mock, if your point is that the Noahide Code isn't especially "Christian-friendly," you're probably right. While it makes for "righteous gentiles," it seems to require them to give up whatever gods they might already have. You can say that Jesus is a manfiestation of the one God and not a different god, but then you still run into the "graven images" problem, which Christians evade by claiming that the incarnation of God as Christ established an "image" of God that could thenceforth be represented and revered. I doubt you'll find much in the Talmud or Midrash that resolves this, since it depends on a premise Jews don't accept. Nor should it necessarily be resolved, since it's at the heart of the fundamental difference between the two faiths. The more the merrier, I say. On the other hand, there are many still-observant Jewish thinkers who do interpret all of this more liberally, who argue for a kind of universalism or even a mystical God-man relationship that transcends the Law (see Buber, as I take him), even though they sometimes seem to jump through semantic hoops to do so. But it's definitely an interesting topic.

Q
 
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ShadowyEmbrace

New member
Ah the good ol? religion thread, a message board just isn?t without one. Anyway I?ve noticed a lot of resentment toward Christianity. I myself am a Christian Spiritualist, I believe the gifts of the spirit my brother Yeshua (Yes his name wasn?t Jesus) the Christ spoke about refers to the blessed development of such things as Astral Projection, lucid dreaming, remote viewing, etc, etc.

Anyway I?m deep into the said development. As stated above I view Christ as my brother and I believe he as well as ourselves are both fully divine and fully human and have the potential to do what he did while on earth. I?ve read most of the non canonical books of the bible my two favorites being the Gospel of Thomas which teaches the kingdom of heaven is already here we just have to realize it, and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which deals with highly metaphysical teachings.

Remember if we all shared the same dream at the same time it would come to be. That's just a little something on some of my belifes. Oh and YHWH is no thing seen.
 
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ShadowyEmbrace

New member
Ah the good ol? religion thread, a message board just isn?t without one. Anyway I?ve noticed a lot of resentment toward Christianity. I myself am a Christian Spiritualist, I believe the gifts of the spirit my brother Yeshua (Yes his name wasn?t Jesus) the Christ spoke about refers to the blessed development of such things as Astral Projection, lucid dreaming, remote viewing, etc, etc.

Anyway I?m deep into the said development. As stated above I view Christ as my brother and I believe he as well as ourselves are both fully divine and fully human and have the potential to do what he did while on earth. I?ve read most of the non canonical books of the bible my two favorites being the Gospel of Thomas which teaches the kingdom of heaven is already here we just have to realize it, and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which deals with highly metaphysical teachings.

Remember if we all shared the same dream at the same time it would come to be. That's just a little something on some of my belifes. Oh and YHWH is no thing seen.
 
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anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i><br>I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.
And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
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anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i><br>I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.
And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 
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anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i>
I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>



I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.

And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Considering most Christians don't have an accurate understanding of Christianity.
 
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anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i>
I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>



I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.

And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Considering most Christians don't have an accurate understanding of Christianity.
 
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ShadowyEmbrace

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i>
I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>



I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.

And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Sorry to double post don't want anyone to confuse me with someone else. Considering most that profess Christianity don't have a true understanding.
 
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ShadowyEmbrace

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br><blockquote>Quote
<hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Allie</b></i>
I understand what you're saying regarding Christians, but my personal thought is that your beliefs are only a sector of yourself. What you DO is more important. <hr></blockquote>



I'm not sure you understand Christianity completely...according to them, faith in Jesus is the way to heaven, not what you do. That may be your belief, but Christians don't believe that.

And as for my position, no offense, but I don't hand out information to just anyone. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> I know, I'm just...totally awesomely secretive. j/k <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"><hr></blockquote>


Sorry to double post don't want anyone to confuse me with someone else. Considering most that profess Christianity don't have a true understanding.
 
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Allie

New member
If you read that in context, it's clearer that I am talking about my beliefs, not Chrisitianity. I'm not a Christian in the slightest.
 
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Allie

New member
If you read that in context, it's clearer that I am talking about my beliefs, not Chrisitianity. I'm not a Christian in the slightest.
 
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miesl

New member
Ahhh, I love our mods and the deleting power they have. It keeps me from making inappropriate commentary. >:)
 
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