Question for Spouses

[anonymous]

Allie,

this is maybe a little off subject, but I find your love for your lost one very beautiful.
You commented about people who tell you to 'stop crying and get over it,'
But, obviously your love was true, and you'll never get over it really. The pain may get easier, but his heart will always be attached to yours.
So for someone to tell you to stop grieving is ridiculous. Does the loss ever go away? No.
It gets easier to handle, but your love stays the same.

All I want to say to you is, sometimes in these types of debates, the actual person, gets lost. No one will ever understand the passion with which you speak b/c YOU loved Ry. So don't let the anger that this disagreement causes you lose the essence of it, which is your love for your lost husband.

Christian

P.S.- About the age of Allie, myself and many others commenting being immature, that's crap. We've been through it all.
I'm 23, I've been raised by drug addicts, taken from my parents and put up for adoption, lived through various abuse as a child, and LIVED with CF on top of it. I've lived the life of a 50 year old woman. So don't tell me I'm young.

 

[anonymous]

Allie,

this is maybe a little off subject, but I find your love for your lost one very beautiful.
You commented about people who tell you to 'stop crying and get over it,'
But, obviously your love was true, and you'll never get over it really. The pain may get easier, but his heart will always be attached to yours.
So for someone to tell you to stop grieving is ridiculous. Does the loss ever go away? No.
It gets easier to handle, but your love stays the same.

All I want to say to you is, sometimes in these types of debates, the actual person, gets lost. No one will ever understand the passion with which you speak b/c YOU loved Ry. So don't let the anger that this disagreement causes you lose the essence of it, which is your love for your lost husband.

Christian

P.S.- About the age of Allie, myself and many others commenting being immature, that's crap. We've been through it all.
I'm 23, I've been raised by drug addicts, taken from my parents and put up for adoption, lived through various abuse as a child, and LIVED with CF on top of it. I've lived the life of a 50 year old woman. So don't tell me I'm young.

 

[Emily65Roses]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>thelizardqueen</b></i><br> (and I hate these terms IS or WS) .<hr></blockquote>

That's something Lisa commented on that I really like. You're not "IS" and "WS," you're just spouses. Keep that in mind, and work on your marriage that way, and you'll be in much better shape. The people that let their marriages boil down to "patient" and "caregiver" are the ones that are in trouble, because they lose sight of being equal partners.

 

[Emily65Roses]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>thelizardqueen</b></i><br> (and I hate these terms IS or WS) .<hr></blockquote>

That's something Lisa commented on that I really like. You're not "IS" and "WS," you're just spouses. Keep that in mind, and work on your marriage that way, and you'll be in much better shape. The people that let their marriages boil down to "patient" and "caregiver" are the ones that are in trouble, because they lose sight of being equal partners.

 

[thelizardqueen]

Using the terms "IS" or "WS" to me, equates to a union that is not a partnership. An "IS" is not better then a "WS", and a "WS" is no better then an "IS". A marriage is a partnership, regardless of how in a decline your health is. You're still a person with the same rights as your heathy spouse.

 

[thelizardqueen]

Using the terms "IS" or "WS" to me, equates to a union that is not a partnership. An "IS" is not better then a "WS", and a "WS" is no better then an "IS". A marriage is a partnership, regardless of how in a decline your health is. You're still a person with the same rights as your heathy spouse.

 

[anonymous]

To walk a mile in our shoes,
I don't have to be in your situtation to know that ADULTERY is wrong. That is just the cold, hard truth. Adultery is wrong no matter how you want to spin it.

Just like child abuse is wrong. I doesn't matter if you were abused as a child or not. That is no excuse for child abuse.

So you can come here all you want, but it won't change the FACT that ADULTERY is wrong.

I did read some of the WS web site. The most offense thing was someone posted about going outside the marriage and in the next post FAITHFUL JOHN congratulated him on it. The disturbing part was that FJ had a BIBLE verse under his name in the signature. I guess his Bible only had 9 commandments!

 

[anonymous]

To walk a mile in our shoes,
I don't have to be in your situtation to know that ADULTERY is wrong. That is just the cold, hard truth. Adultery is wrong no matter how you want to spin it.

Just like child abuse is wrong. I doesn't matter if you were abused as a child or not. That is no excuse for child abuse.

So you can come here all you want, but it won't change the FACT that ADULTERY is wrong.

I did read some of the WS web site. The most offense thing was someone posted about going outside the marriage and in the next post FAITHFUL JOHN congratulated him on it. The disturbing part was that FJ had a BIBLE verse under his name in the signature. I guess his Bible only had 9 commandments!

 

[anonymous]

Hi Allie and others,
Back from work.

I hate the terms well spouse and ill spouse too. Actually, that book that I mentioned before by Rolland would say that the minute you start thinking of yourselves this way you're in deep doo doo. I've mentioned that on the WSboard more than once.

The Rolland book is an interestingg book and in the chapters on ill children and such it does talk about folks with genetic illnesses. But in the chapter on Chronic Illness in Marriage it assumes that the illness is "new" coming on after the marriage. It points out that in that case, folks first respond to illness as they would with any short term illness or surgery--the "well" spouse puts their needs completely on hold while the take care of the "ill" spouse so that the "ill" spouse can get well and they can get back to being equal partners who consider each other's needs. Of course, since it's a chronic illness, that never happens and the spousal "system" is completely out of whack by the time folks show up for counseling. And that's why usually the system/marriage is completely out of whack by the time someone shows up at the well spouse board. And changing a broken system is a lot harder than making sure you don't break it in the first place.

And that's one reason why a marriage when one spouse has CF or another heritable condition that you know about (like Marfan Syndrome that my husband had) could be different and healthier than a marriage where someone gets a chronic illness/disability later in life. if the unhealthy trap of patient/caregiver or patient/nurse or child/mother|father is known to both spouses from the beginning they can put their energies into avoiding it and building a healthy marriage.

But since it often seems that society as a whole (and insurance companies in particular) a hell bent on having the "weller" spouse take on ALL of the caregiving (even caregiving they would pay for if the ill person was single) it is a hard hard fight. And even family members can try to undermine the couples determination to stay equal. My husband's sisters were always trying to mother him and have me mother him. Anyway, they were always second guessing his choices and not above using emotional blackmail to try to get him to change. (Did I mention that I was angry at some family members?) And some of his choices were risky - like working with street folks at health clinics and such (anyone for possibly exposing themselves to really nasty infectious diseases like resistant TB?). But he was a grownup, knew the risks, and got to choose what he wanted to do for work and he liked being the "helper" so so be it. He needed me as spouse to support him and celebrate his choices.

Of course, it's not just his family that didn't get a lot of things. My daughter who was in college and now lives on the other side of the country never really got to know him either. And she is loyal to a fault so mainly just worried that I was doing to much as he got sicker or would have my heart broken when he died rather than empathizing with him. Did she think that if I stayed married to her father the two of us would have died simultaneously? Statistically, he would leave me a widow too - and I wouldn't even have had a good loving marriage beforehand? (Did I mention that I'm really angry at some people right now?)

And it's very hard to know where is a safe supportive place to grieve right now. I understand Allie's dillema about that.

I think we can agree that the WS board, isn't such a place-not necessarily because of the adultery thing but because people are venting about the very things I'd give a million bucks to still be doing . (And you'll notice that though there's a FWS as in Former Well Spouse very few people post there. I'm guessing for that reason among others.)

I went to a widows support group, but most people were still astonished that their husband had died. I guess they didn't know that everyone has a coffin in their basement (as Harriet McBryde Johnson would put it).. And no one else in the group had to go to work--everyone else was older than me.

But I'm too old for the young widowed group. (Though you might try that Allie.) They know about having to go right back to work, but they even are less understanding of the coffin in the basement thing. And at least I'm old enough so no one is after me to start dating right away or anything like they did when I divorced at 35, so some of the pressures they are under I get to avoid.

I can't really hang out at the COPD support groups that my husband and I used to go to. Don't qualify yet on my own, tho' if I keep smoking I will eventually.

And it's intrusive of me to be here, tho' I'm hoping that some of these posts will let Allie know that she's not completely alone - that there's someone who shares some of what she went through and is going through.

But I think it's key to avoid unsupportive place and people and try to find the supportive one (even if there are very few). So I'm not calling my daughter or his sisters, (or anyone else I have to defend him to) or reading the WS board - or even the COPD boards or..... Mainly just hanging out with those very few good friends who knew us and loved us both, knew about the coffins in the basement. and knew how much support he gave me even when he couldn't get out of bed.

I figure that when I get angry that I didn't get the support I thought I would when I go somewhere, the anger might be appropriate or then again not (I am not really in good enough shape to judge right now), but it sure is an indication that that place is a bad place for me to be right now for sure.

Hang in there, Allie.
I don't know if it gets better being a widow or not, but at least we'll get more experienced at it.

Keeping you in my heart,
LisaV

 

[anonymous]

Hi Allie and others,
Back from work.

I hate the terms well spouse and ill spouse too. Actually, that book that I mentioned before by Rolland would say that the minute you start thinking of yourselves this way you're in deep doo doo. I've mentioned that on the WSboard more than once.

The Rolland book is an interestingg book and in the chapters on ill children and such it does talk about folks with genetic illnesses. But in the chapter on Chronic Illness in Marriage it assumes that the illness is "new" coming on after the marriage. It points out that in that case, folks first respond to illness as they would with any short term illness or surgery--the "well" spouse puts their needs completely on hold while the take care of the "ill" spouse so that the "ill" spouse can get well and they can get back to being equal partners who consider each other's needs. Of course, since it's a chronic illness, that never happens and the spousal "system" is completely out of whack by the time folks show up for counseling. And that's why usually the system/marriage is completely out of whack by the time someone shows up at the well spouse board. And changing a broken system is a lot harder than making sure you don't break it in the first place.

And that's one reason why a marriage when one spouse has CF or another heritable condition that you know about (like Marfan Syndrome that my husband had) could be different and healthier than a marriage where someone gets a chronic illness/disability later in life. if the unhealthy trap of patient/caregiver or patient/nurse or child/mother|father is known to both spouses from the beginning they can put their energies into avoiding it and building a healthy marriage.

But since it often seems that society as a whole (and insurance companies in particular) a hell bent on having the "weller" spouse take on ALL of the caregiving (even caregiving they would pay for if the ill person was single) it is a hard hard fight. And even family members can try to undermine the couples determination to stay equal. My husband's sisters were always trying to mother him and have me mother him. Anyway, they were always second guessing his choices and not above using emotional blackmail to try to get him to change. (Did I mention that I was angry at some family members?) And some of his choices were risky - like working with street folks at health clinics and such (anyone for possibly exposing themselves to really nasty infectious diseases like resistant TB?). But he was a grownup, knew the risks, and got to choose what he wanted to do for work and he liked being the "helper" so so be it. He needed me as spouse to support him and celebrate his choices.

Of course, it's not just his family that didn't get a lot of things. My daughter who was in college and now lives on the other side of the country never really got to know him either. And she is loyal to a fault so mainly just worried that I was doing to much as he got sicker or would have my heart broken when he died rather than empathizing with him. Did she think that if I stayed married to her father the two of us would have died simultaneously? Statistically, he would leave me a widow too - and I wouldn't even have had a good loving marriage beforehand? (Did I mention that I'm really angry at some people right now?)

And it's very hard to know where is a safe supportive place to grieve right now. I understand Allie's dillema about that.

I think we can agree that the WS board, isn't such a place-not necessarily because of the adultery thing but because people are venting about the very things I'd give a million bucks to still be doing . (And you'll notice that though there's a FWS as in Former Well Spouse very few people post there. I'm guessing for that reason among others.)

I went to a widows support group, but most people were still astonished that their husband had died. I guess they didn't know that everyone has a coffin in their basement (as Harriet McBryde Johnson would put it).. And no one else in the group had to go to work--everyone else was older than me.

But I'm too old for the young widowed group. (Though you might try that Allie.) They know about having to go right back to work, but they even are less understanding of the coffin in the basement thing. And at least I'm old enough so no one is after me to start dating right away or anything like they did when I divorced at 35, so some of the pressures they are under I get to avoid.

I can't really hang out at the COPD support groups that my husband and I used to go to. Don't qualify yet on my own, tho' if I keep smoking I will eventually.

And it's intrusive of me to be here, tho' I'm hoping that some of these posts will let Allie know that she's not completely alone - that there's someone who shares some of what she went through and is going through.

But I think it's key to avoid unsupportive place and people and try to find the supportive one (even if there are very few). So I'm not calling my daughter or his sisters, (or anyone else I have to defend him to) or reading the WS board - or even the COPD boards or..... Mainly just hanging out with those very few good friends who knew us and loved us both, knew about the coffins in the basement. and knew how much support he gave me even when he couldn't get out of bed.

I figure that when I get angry that I didn't get the support I thought I would when I go somewhere, the anger might be appropriate or then again not (I am not really in good enough shape to judge right now), but it sure is an indication that that place is a bad place for me to be right now for sure.

Hang in there, Allie.
I don't know if it gets better being a widow or not, but at least we'll get more experienced at it.

Keeping you in my heart,
LisaV

 

[Emily65Roses]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>
And it's intrusive of me to be here, tho' I'm hoping that some of these posts will let Allie know that she's not completely alone
LisaV<hr></blockquote>

We're a little different here. We welcome non-CFers. Parents, spouses, friends, people just looking to learn, whatever. As long as you're respectful (which you most certainly have been), you're welcome here. Just thought I'd make sure you knew that.
<img src="i/expressions/rose.gif" border="0">

 

[Emily65Roses]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>
And it's intrusive of me to be here, tho' I'm hoping that some of these posts will let Allie know that she's not completely alone
LisaV<hr></blockquote>

We're a little different here. We welcome non-CFers. Parents, spouses, friends, people just looking to learn, whatever. As long as you're respectful (which you most certainly have been), you're welcome here. Just thought I'd make sure you knew that.
<img src="i/expressions/rose.gif" border="0">

 

[Allie]

Christian, thank you for your kind words <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

Lisa, like EMily said, you are more than welcome to stay. And if you ever want to rant and rave about how stupid people are, you can always email me.

AS far as family being evil goes, I know exactly how you feel. My mother, from when I started dating Ry to the day he died..and now, even, never stopped being positively evil about the whole situation. She told Ry to lety me go so I could find a healthy husband. When we were excited telling the family about our adoption news, her only response to Ry was "She won't remember you, you know" She encouraged me to find Ahava a 'real father'. And after he died, she continually tells me I'm better off and that I should be looking to get remarried. RArrrrr. Oh, she makes me so mad!

 

[Allie]

Christian, thank you for your kind words <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

Lisa, like EMily said, you are more than welcome to stay. And if you ever want to rant and rave about how stupid people are, you can always email me.

AS far as family being evil goes, I know exactly how you feel. My mother, from when I started dating Ry to the day he died..and now, even, never stopped being positively evil about the whole situation. She told Ry to lety me go so I could find a healthy husband. When we were excited telling the family about our adoption news, her only response to Ry was "She won't remember you, you know" She encouraged me to find Ahava a 'real father'. And after he died, she continually tells me I'm better off and that I should be looking to get remarried. RArrrrr. Oh, she makes me so mad!

 

[CowTown]

I'm a bit late in this conversation, but I went to that web site. Apparently they have disguised the Intimacy section so that you can only get to it by signing in. Everyone seemed a bit perplexed because they changed it recently.

Here's one of the responses to clear up people's confusion:
You have to be logged in....keeps things a little less "explosive."

How bizzare! I think cheating is offensive anyway you look at it, but to think they're using a sickness as an excuse is retarded!

 

[CowTown]

I'm a bit late in this conversation, but I went to that web site. Apparently they have disguised the Intimacy section so that you can only get to it by signing in. Everyone seemed a bit perplexed because they changed it recently.

Here's one of the responses to clear up people's confusion:
You have to be logged in....keeps things a little less "explosive."

How bizzare! I think cheating is offensive anyway you look at it, but to think they're using a sickness as an excuse is retarded!

 

[CowTown]

Woops, I think I only read to page 2 or something. I didn't realize this message link went for 8 pages! Well I have some catching up on. Nevermind my previous note.

 

[CowTown]

Woops, I think I only read to page 2 or something. I didn't realize this message link went for 8 pages! Well I have some catching up on. Nevermind my previous note.

 

[anonymous]

I guess what it really comes down too, is I would LOVE to hear some "WS" talk about what they go through, and I am totally supportive of anyone who chooses to do that. Of COURSE you deserve love and affection. But you can find friends and support who are willing to give that WITHOUT cheating. And I would think that that's what a forum like that is for.... offering love and support to other's who are going through the same thing you are. What I read was not love and support.... it was full of resentment and anger. And to be honest, if I were caring for someone, and I knew that it was becoming to hard for me, and I was starting to think about cheating, I WOULD tell my spouse. Because in the end, the guilt would kill me. I'm not even talking about what it would do to my spouse, the guilt from cheating would tear me up inside. So I don't think it's healthy for someone to be telling another that it's a good idea to go out and cheat. And that's the feeling I got. I can understand if it happens. I don't agree with it, but I understand. But if you're going to cheat, for godsake, don't write about how you're not sorry and you deserved it in a public forum. ESPECIALLY because if Emily could find it, what's to stop the SPOUSE from finding it? Yeah, I'd be hurt if I was cheated on, but I'd have been CRUSHED if I'd read that.

Everyone has different situations. I don't disagree. And I promise, to any WS reading this, take it from someone who's on the otherside, WE LOVE AND APPRECIATE EVERYTHING, I promise no matter what health situation your spouse has, or if they say it, they know how hard it is for you, and even if they never tell you.... you're probably the reason they keep on breathing. You probably make whatever pain and discomfort they go through worth going through everyday. I know Matt does. I know I certainly don't stick myself with needles because I enjoy it, and if I didn't have him, and I didn't think he'd be lost without me.... I probably would have given up on taking good care of myself and would be half-assing it right now.
But when you write something, no matter WHAT place it is, you ALWAYS have to keep in mind that it might offend someone. And if you're willing to accept that it may, that's fine. It just seemed to me that the people on that forum were NOT willing to hear that someone was offended. And that's honestly the part that bothered me most. (That and that someone would cheer on someone else for cheating). I don't think EVERYONE is like that on that site. And I have no doubt that the site has been a comfort to many people. I would rather see a site like that offer solutions and advice that would be HEALTHY. I don't feel cheating is healthy, for EITHER spouse. And if I were in Allie's or Matt's place.... it would not be a site for me.

 

[anonymous]

I guess what it really comes down too, is I would LOVE to hear some "WS" talk about what they go through, and I am totally supportive of anyone who chooses to do that. Of COURSE you deserve love and affection. But you can find friends and support who are willing to give that WITHOUT cheating. And I would think that that's what a forum like that is for.... offering love and support to other's who are going through the same thing you are. What I read was not love and support.... it was full of resentment and anger. And to be honest, if I were caring for someone, and I knew that it was becoming to hard for me, and I was starting to think about cheating, I WOULD tell my spouse. Because in the end, the guilt would kill me. I'm not even talking about what it would do to my spouse, the guilt from cheating would tear me up inside. So I don't think it's healthy for someone to be telling another that it's a good idea to go out and cheat. And that's the feeling I got. I can understand if it happens. I don't agree with it, but I understand. But if you're going to cheat, for godsake, don't write about how you're not sorry and you deserved it in a public forum. ESPECIALLY because if Emily could find it, what's to stop the SPOUSE from finding it? Yeah, I'd be hurt if I was cheated on, but I'd have been CRUSHED if I'd read that.

Everyone has different situations. I don't disagree. And I promise, to any WS reading this, take it from someone who's on the otherside, WE LOVE AND APPRECIATE EVERYTHING, I promise no matter what health situation your spouse has, or if they say it, they know how hard it is for you, and even if they never tell you.... you're probably the reason they keep on breathing. You probably make whatever pain and discomfort they go through worth going through everyday. I know Matt does. I know I certainly don't stick myself with needles because I enjoy it, and if I didn't have him, and I didn't think he'd be lost without me.... I probably would have given up on taking good care of myself and would be half-assing it right now.
But when you write something, no matter WHAT place it is, you ALWAYS have to keep in mind that it might offend someone. And if you're willing to accept that it may, that's fine. It just seemed to me that the people on that forum were NOT willing to hear that someone was offended. And that's honestly the part that bothered me most. (That and that someone would cheer on someone else for cheating). I don't think EVERYONE is like that on that site. And I have no doubt that the site has been a comfort to many people. I would rather see a site like that offer solutions and advice that would be HEALTHY. I don't feel cheating is healthy, for EITHER spouse. And if I were in Allie's or Matt's place.... it would not be a site for me.