Question for Spouses

[anonymous]

allie,
i have read your story, and i am truly sorry for your loss.

what you say may be true in many cases, but is also not true in many cases.
whatever. we should be aware of generalising. when we do that, we hurt the guilty as well as the innocent.

we all have an alloted time in this world.
let's just try to be more tolerant.
we will always meet people with opposing points of view.
isn't that what makes this world an interesting place?

say what we have to say, just don't sensationalise what we are saying.
gross exagerations, labelling and name-calling are uncalled for.

 

[anonymous]

allie,
i have read your story, and i am truly sorry for your loss.

what you say may be true in many cases, but is also not true in many cases.
whatever. we should be aware of generalising. when we do that, we hurt the guilty as well as the innocent.

we all have an alloted time in this world.
let's just try to be more tolerant.
we will always meet people with opposing points of view.
isn't that what makes this world an interesting place?

say what we have to say, just don't sensationalise what we are saying.
gross exagerations, labelling and name-calling are uncalled for.

 

[Allie]

I'm tolerant of things I don't see as grossly wrong, and that's why I make exceptions. Brain injury? I can totally see where you are coming from. I even understand the frustration of taking care of a sick husband. All we have for each other is a broad brush, laws are written broad brush, like "Don't kill people" there are exceptions, certainly, but it's a good overall rule. To me "Don't cheat on a mentally capable person" Is one of those cardinal rules. I will always have trouble justifying it, it makes no sense to me.

I think we're all guilty of sensationalism, your side and mine. Saying that I was fortunate not to know what it was like to care for Ry for years was uncalled for, that's when I got unreasonable. There are many people on that board I would say who fit my category of immorality within their marriage. Personal thing. You probably think we are immoral for thinking they are.

 

[Allie]

I'm tolerant of things I don't see as grossly wrong, and that's why I make exceptions. Brain injury? I can totally see where you are coming from. I even understand the frustration of taking care of a sick husband. All we have for each other is a broad brush, laws are written broad brush, like "Don't kill people" there are exceptions, certainly, but it's a good overall rule. To me "Don't cheat on a mentally capable person" Is one of those cardinal rules. I will always have trouble justifying it, it makes no sense to me.

I think we're all guilty of sensationalism, your side and mine. Saying that I was fortunate not to know what it was like to care for Ry for years was uncalled for, that's when I got unreasonable. There are many people on that board I would say who fit my category of immorality within their marriage. Personal thing. You probably think we are immoral for thinking they are.

 

[Wunderkin23]

If you truely love someone, and they truely love you back.... they won't want to see you unhappy anymore than you want to see them unhappy. I would sooner slit my own wrists than find out my fiance cheated on me, but never came to me and told me how he felt about living with me and my illness.

Cheating happens sometimes. Illness or no illness. And maybe an illness can be a cause in the situation, but I still don't think it can be the EXCUSE or JUSTIFICATION for the action.
I personally never took offense to the topic, so much as someone declairing that "go them they were looking out for themselves for once!" (This is not an exact quote, but the jist of it.) And to imply that Allie has it easy because her spouse has passed on, or to imply that she's less of a WS than the other member's even, just because of the nature of his illness..... that REALLY offended me.
You can be supportive of someone without continuing on in a relationship with that person. Try a friendship. One of the few people who is truely supportive in times I've really needed him is an ex-boyfriend. We weren't right for eachother, and in part, he admited to me that it might have had something to do with my illness. He feared it would hold him back from things he wanted in life.... I wasn't as "adventureous" as he was because my illness set limits. The break-up was HORRIBLE, on-again, off-again for six straight months. But in the end, we decided to be just friends, and he's one of my fiance's groomsmen. And he's the only person I'd actively call if I were spitting up blood and scared, and I couldn't get ahold of my mother or fiance. Because I know he'd pat me on the back, and tell me bad jokes to make me feel less scared. And even though we're not romatically involved anymore.... he IS in fact there for me.
You can leave and not leave entirely. Offer love and support, but let the person know that you can't fully emotionally handle supporting them in a romantic manner. It IS in fact possible.
And I think that instead of patting the people who are condoning cheating on the back and telling them that they had the right to do it, and it' okay, is not healthy. I would think it would in fact be MORE supportive to let them know that there is no shame in stepping away..... because if they're that unhappy, I'm sure the person they are caring for feels it, and is equally unhappy. Nobody offered up other solutions.
As a person with an illness, do you really think I am completely blind to the suffering that MY illness causes everyone around me? I've watched my mother worry for 25years. My father hates hospitals and has to be tricked into coming to see me during a hospital stay. I deal more with everyone ELSES feelings about my being sick than I get to deal with my own feelings about being sick sometimes.... Gotta be strong for everyone else. I've been the source of tears with both my mother and fiance because I got sick. I feel HORRIBLE. I feel unworthy of their love, I feel like I'm being selfish to want to get married sometimes knowing that Matt will be sad when I'm gone. Half the time I work hard at staying well for everyone elses sake, and just stop caring on mine. I've had exes who came to the hospital to visit me when I was truely scared and alone, and I spent more time comforting them than they did me.

My fiance earns my love, gratitude and appreciation ALL THE TIME, and he does it not because he has too, but because he really IS a selfless person. He's got it rough. I'm no peach. I'm messy, and often times too tired to be of any help with anything. He financially supports us, comes home, often times cleans, and when he can, has appointed himself in charge of making sure I eat and gain weight. I love him more than life itself.... and that's not a cliche or an exageration.... it's the truth. He's not my enemy. And I am not HIS enemy. But the general feeling on that SOME of the people on that WS forum give off is that the sick spouse is the enemy. There is a LOT of resentment. And it's my personal opinion that I would never stay with someone who resented me because they had to care for me....

 

[Wunderkin23]

If you truely love someone, and they truely love you back.... they won't want to see you unhappy anymore than you want to see them unhappy. I would sooner slit my own wrists than find out my fiance cheated on me, but never came to me and told me how he felt about living with me and my illness.

Cheating happens sometimes. Illness or no illness. And maybe an illness can be a cause in the situation, but I still don't think it can be the EXCUSE or JUSTIFICATION for the action.
I personally never took offense to the topic, so much as someone declairing that "go them they were looking out for themselves for once!" (This is not an exact quote, but the jist of it.) And to imply that Allie has it easy because her spouse has passed on, or to imply that she's less of a WS than the other member's even, just because of the nature of his illness..... that REALLY offended me.
You can be supportive of someone without continuing on in a relationship with that person. Try a friendship. One of the few people who is truely supportive in times I've really needed him is an ex-boyfriend. We weren't right for eachother, and in part, he admited to me that it might have had something to do with my illness. He feared it would hold him back from things he wanted in life.... I wasn't as "adventureous" as he was because my illness set limits. The break-up was HORRIBLE, on-again, off-again for six straight months. But in the end, we decided to be just friends, and he's one of my fiance's groomsmen. And he's the only person I'd actively call if I were spitting up blood and scared, and I couldn't get ahold of my mother or fiance. Because I know he'd pat me on the back, and tell me bad jokes to make me feel less scared. And even though we're not romatically involved anymore.... he IS in fact there for me.
You can leave and not leave entirely. Offer love and support, but let the person know that you can't fully emotionally handle supporting them in a romantic manner. It IS in fact possible.
And I think that instead of patting the people who are condoning cheating on the back and telling them that they had the right to do it, and it' okay, is not healthy. I would think it would in fact be MORE supportive to let them know that there is no shame in stepping away..... because if they're that unhappy, I'm sure the person they are caring for feels it, and is equally unhappy. Nobody offered up other solutions.
As a person with an illness, do you really think I am completely blind to the suffering that MY illness causes everyone around me? I've watched my mother worry for 25years. My father hates hospitals and has to be tricked into coming to see me during a hospital stay. I deal more with everyone ELSES feelings about my being sick than I get to deal with my own feelings about being sick sometimes.... Gotta be strong for everyone else. I've been the source of tears with both my mother and fiance because I got sick. I feel HORRIBLE. I feel unworthy of their love, I feel like I'm being selfish to want to get married sometimes knowing that Matt will be sad when I'm gone. Half the time I work hard at staying well for everyone elses sake, and just stop caring on mine. I've had exes who came to the hospital to visit me when I was truely scared and alone, and I spent more time comforting them than they did me.

My fiance earns my love, gratitude and appreciation ALL THE TIME, and he does it not because he has too, but because he really IS a selfless person. He's got it rough. I'm no peach. I'm messy, and often times too tired to be of any help with anything. He financially supports us, comes home, often times cleans, and when he can, has appointed himself in charge of making sure I eat and gain weight. I love him more than life itself.... and that's not a cliche or an exageration.... it's the truth. He's not my enemy. And I am not HIS enemy. But the general feeling on that SOME of the people on that WS forum give off is that the sick spouse is the enemy. There is a LOT of resentment. And it's my personal opinion that I would never stay with someone who resented me because they had to care for me....

 

[Wunderkin23]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>littledebbie</b></i><br>I just have to say those comments thrown out regarding Allie and Emily being self-righteous......almost too stupid to bother responding to, but just to throw in some support here it is. Uhmmm.. that's a big Nope, so sorry, try again. I really dislike when someone wants to look at someone's age or the length of their relationship etc. and use it to try to negate a good and rational arguement becasue they don't want to hear it. Intelligent debate tactic, why don't you stick out your tongue and out your fingers in your ears while your at it?<hr></blockquote>


I totally agree. Being old and having lived life longer, does not necissarily mean you're wiser. Just because you lived life, that doesn't mean you've actually learned from lifes lessons. I've heard some truely wise things come out of my sixteen year old sisters mouth. That girl is intelligent. Emily's age should have no bearing on her opinions.

 

[Wunderkin23]

<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>littledebbie</b></i><br>I just have to say those comments thrown out regarding Allie and Emily being self-righteous......almost too stupid to bother responding to, but just to throw in some support here it is. Uhmmm.. that's a big Nope, so sorry, try again. I really dislike when someone wants to look at someone's age or the length of their relationship etc. and use it to try to negate a good and rational arguement becasue they don't want to hear it. Intelligent debate tactic, why don't you stick out your tongue and out your fingers in your ears while your at it?<hr></blockquote>


I totally agree. Being old and having lived life longer, does not necissarily mean you're wiser. Just because you lived life, that doesn't mean you've actually learned from lifes lessons. I've heard some truely wise things come out of my sixteen year old sisters mouth. That girl is intelligent. Emily's age should have no bearing on her opinions.

 

[anonymous]

allie,
i need to clarify that i am not a member of the WS board. i go there quite often to read the postings but have not posted myself.
so i am not on anyside's one, so you can stop referring to "your side". of course, now i will have to register to read the intimacy section seeing that they only allow access to registered members thanks to you here! *lol*

Wunderkin23
i can see that you are a truly wonderful person, and you should not have to bear so many burdens.
you have enough to bear already.

as i mentioned before, i too am an IS as well as a WS.
maybe that's why i try so hard to see things from both points of view.

it's wonderful to be so idealistic as most of you are.
i remember when i was once like that......a loooonnnnnnngggggg time ago.
now i;m just old grey and sometime a little cynical though i try very hard not to be.

the fact is life is not black and white, but many shades of grey though i prefer to think of life as many shades of pink.
of course it would be nice to be perfectly blunt
but what happens if that bluntness were to hurt someone.

take this scenario:
the IS has no one else who cares.
the IS is troublesome, verbally abusive, and totally engrossed with his illness and his needs.
furthermore, the IS needs daily care.
you have been taking care of this person for many years (decades) and you are, in a nutshell, totally burnt out, and in need of some emotional sustenance yourself, which the IS can't provide.

would you leave someone like this?
what happens if in this motley mix, you just happen to love this person even though you no longer LIKE this person?
would you be blunt (in the name of honesty) and tell this person: hey! you're not who i married, so i'm seeking intimacy and emotional bonding with someone else?

 

[anonymous]

allie,
i need to clarify that i am not a member of the WS board. i go there quite often to read the postings but have not posted myself.
so i am not on anyside's one, so you can stop referring to "your side". of course, now i will have to register to read the intimacy section seeing that they only allow access to registered members thanks to you here! *lol*

Wunderkin23
i can see that you are a truly wonderful person, and you should not have to bear so many burdens.
you have enough to bear already.

as i mentioned before, i too am an IS as well as a WS.
maybe that's why i try so hard to see things from both points of view.

it's wonderful to be so idealistic as most of you are.
i remember when i was once like that......a loooonnnnnnngggggg time ago.
now i;m just old grey and sometime a little cynical though i try very hard not to be.

the fact is life is not black and white, but many shades of grey though i prefer to think of life as many shades of pink.
of course it would be nice to be perfectly blunt
but what happens if that bluntness were to hurt someone.

take this scenario:
the IS has no one else who cares.
the IS is troublesome, verbally abusive, and totally engrossed with his illness and his needs.
furthermore, the IS needs daily care.
you have been taking care of this person for many years (decades) and you are, in a nutshell, totally burnt out, and in need of some emotional sustenance yourself, which the IS can't provide.

would you leave someone like this?
what happens if in this motley mix, you just happen to love this person even though you no longer LIKE this person?
would you be blunt (in the name of honesty) and tell this person: hey! you're not who i married, so i'm seeking intimacy and emotional bonding with someone else?

 

[Allie]

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>would you be blunt (in the name of honesty) and tell this person: hey! you're not who i married, so i'm seeking intimacy and emotional bonding with someone else? <hr></blockquote>

Yes yes I would. If the spouse agrees I have no problem with it. It's better than lying. They can choose to stay or go. I understand that life is not black and white, I'm not saying it is. Frankly, I think the conversation we're having now is fine, even if we don't agree.

And I apologize for rashly assuming you were a member of the board, though in truth I was referrring to the 'arguement for fidelity' vs "no need for it'

 

[Allie]

<blockquote>Quote
<hr>would you be blunt (in the name of honesty) and tell this person: hey! you're not who i married, so i'm seeking intimacy and emotional bonding with someone else? <hr></blockquote>

Yes yes I would. If the spouse agrees I have no problem with it. It's better than lying. They can choose to stay or go. I understand that life is not black and white, I'm not saying it is. Frankly, I think the conversation we're having now is fine, even if we don't agree.

And I apologize for rashly assuming you were a member of the board, though in truth I was referrring to the 'arguement for fidelity' vs "no need for it'

 

[anonymous]

Wow! So I have been going back and forth with my thinking regarding all of this. I completely do not agree with the cheating aspect of this but I am not a WS so I can't say that I am in that position. The issue I have is that, just like we come to this board to feel safe to talk about our feelings the people on the WS board do too. They talk about that because they need to and probably have no one else who can understand their position. I agree that if people disagree with that and are part of the WS board they can and should respond but I don't think that we should spend so much of our energy getting mad at these people on our board. That is not what this board is for. We can talk about how we would not cheat and our feelings regarding that and CF, but why bring them into the conversation anymore? They can (and should) continue sharing their opinions on their board and we can on ours. I guess I feel like we should make this about us, not us versus them anymore. Nothing will change either ones opinions and they should feel safe sharing their opinions on their board like we feel safe on ours.
I completely do not mean to offend anyone and if I am missing something I totally apologize. Like i said, I am not in the position of Allie and others and would never dream to say that I understand their viewpoint or what they are going through. I guess I just think that we should end the fighting and get back to healing ourselves without caring about what others are doing with their lives.

Sue

 

[anonymous]

Wow! So I have been going back and forth with my thinking regarding all of this. I completely do not agree with the cheating aspect of this but I am not a WS so I can't say that I am in that position. The issue I have is that, just like we come to this board to feel safe to talk about our feelings the people on the WS board do too. They talk about that because they need to and probably have no one else who can understand their position. I agree that if people disagree with that and are part of the WS board they can and should respond but I don't think that we should spend so much of our energy getting mad at these people on our board. That is not what this board is for. We can talk about how we would not cheat and our feelings regarding that and CF, but why bring them into the conversation anymore? They can (and should) continue sharing their opinions on their board and we can on ours. I guess I feel like we should make this about us, not us versus them anymore. Nothing will change either ones opinions and they should feel safe sharing their opinions on their board like we feel safe on ours.
I completely do not mean to offend anyone and if I am missing something I totally apologize. Like i said, I am not in the position of Allie and others and would never dream to say that I understand their viewpoint or what they are going through. I guess I just think that we should end the fighting and get back to healing ourselves without caring about what others are doing with their lives.

Sue

 

[anonymous]

wunderkin23
you are spot on when you said you can leave and still offer support.

it wouldn't work in every case, as i have just illustrated in my last post,
for reasons of practicality (daily care and 24 hour watching),
and also for the negative impact on the IS's state of mind (no family, no friends).

but this is a very workable solution if both parties can accept it, and if circumstances allow.
and as you pointed out, it is an open, honest thing to do.
it's what we all want to do, but sometimes we have to think of the consequences too.

during my forays into the ws board, i read about ws's who actually did this and others who are considering doing this.

in any case, i shouldn't really be on this board seeing that i am not a CF'er and i've strayed long enough already.
i just wanted to offer a different point of view from someone who (hopefully) can see it from both sides.

i wish all you the very best.
good bye

 

[anonymous]

wunderkin23
you are spot on when you said you can leave and still offer support.

it wouldn't work in every case, as i have just illustrated in my last post,
for reasons of practicality (daily care and 24 hour watching),
and also for the negative impact on the IS's state of mind (no family, no friends).

but this is a very workable solution if both parties can accept it, and if circumstances allow.
and as you pointed out, it is an open, honest thing to do.
it's what we all want to do, but sometimes we have to think of the consequences too.

during my forays into the ws board, i read about ws's who actually did this and others who are considering doing this.

in any case, i shouldn't really be on this board seeing that i am not a CF'er and i've strayed long enough already.
i just wanted to offer a different point of view from someone who (hopefully) can see it from both sides.

i wish all you the very best.
good bye

 

[anonymous]

This is why WS feelings were hurt.

An apology was issued for the "sorry judge" and age based comments made by the WS. However, the closest thing that was said about these words were something along the lines of "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt." Which is different from saying "I'm sorry that those hurtful words were said."

You are certainly well within your rights to disagree. But does that right to disagree extend to these kinds of insults?

================================================================

found this disgusting forum for the spouses of sick and disabled people

I don't want them thinking I'm making it my job to rally up people to come in and attack them.

I can only hope that Karma bites these people on the *ss

truly think these people are the lowest common denominator

remind me of a group of gossipy old biddies

that jackass

then laugh when Karma kicks them in the big ugly butt.

something is seriously wrong with many of those people

big horny gorilla pokes poor sick husband or wife in the head and says "OH OH AH AH ME WANT SEX. SEX IS ALL I THINK ABOUT. SEX IS MOST IMPORTANT. ME DONT CARE IF YOU SICK! ME DONT CARE IF YOU HAD BAD DAY! ME IS MOST IMPORTANT AND ME WANT SEX! AND IF YOU DONT GIVE ME SEX, ME GOING TO FIND IT ELSEHWERE! BECAUSE IM A GORILLA WHO DOESNT KNOW ANY BETTER! ME NOT A HUMAN WHO CAN USE BIG BRAIN! OH OH AH AH!"

They're stupid, heartless people

what selfish people

really crappy people

 

[anonymous]

This is why WS feelings were hurt.

An apology was issued for the "sorry judge" and age based comments made by the WS. However, the closest thing that was said about these words were something along the lines of "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt." Which is different from saying "I'm sorry that those hurtful words were said."

You are certainly well within your rights to disagree. But does that right to disagree extend to these kinds of insults?

================================================================

found this disgusting forum for the spouses of sick and disabled people

I don't want them thinking I'm making it my job to rally up people to come in and attack them.

I can only hope that Karma bites these people on the *ss

truly think these people are the lowest common denominator

remind me of a group of gossipy old biddies

that jackass

then laugh when Karma kicks them in the big ugly butt.

something is seriously wrong with many of those people

big horny gorilla pokes poor sick husband or wife in the head and says "OH OH AH AH ME WANT SEX. SEX IS ALL I THINK ABOUT. SEX IS MOST IMPORTANT. ME DONT CARE IF YOU SICK! ME DONT CARE IF YOU HAD BAD DAY! ME IS MOST IMPORTANT AND ME WANT SEX! AND IF YOU DONT GIVE ME SEX, ME GOING TO FIND IT ELSEHWERE! BECAUSE IM A GORILLA WHO DOESNT KNOW ANY BETTER! ME NOT A HUMAN WHO CAN USE BIG BRAIN! OH OH AH AH!"

They're stupid, heartless people

what selfish people

really crappy people

 

[miesl]

I'm sorry - but as soon as someone told Allie that she was LUCKY to be a young widow... they deserved every single word said - and then some (the kind of words that get you banned).

As soon as they started talking that CF WSs were lucky because they wouldn't have to deal with 40-50 years of caregiving - they deserved it.

As soon as they made hypocritical statements like "CF wellspouses are welcome here" then continued to make us feel unworthy of being in their little elite club - they deserved every single word.

I stand by statements regarding that board. I had found it two years ago - and thought "This might be a good place for me to come in the future - if I get stressed out with Jeremy being ill" - I now know that I never, ever want to go to that site to get support. I never want to associate with people who are so burnt out, bitter and angry. I would want support dealing with being a caregiver - being subjected to the attitude on that board is not ever going to be helpful.

-Michelle

Editing to add - I also stand what was said about the poster "Faithful John" - if you didn't actually read the post where he kept insisting that Emily and I were the same person (post after post, after post) - then completely getting up on his high and mighty horse... you have no right to say if he was being a jerkoff or not.

 

[miesl]

I'm sorry - but as soon as someone told Allie that she was LUCKY to be a young widow... they deserved every single word said - and then some (the kind of words that get you banned).

As soon as they started talking that CF WSs were lucky because they wouldn't have to deal with 40-50 years of caregiving - they deserved it.

As soon as they made hypocritical statements like "CF wellspouses are welcome here" then continued to make us feel unworthy of being in their little elite club - they deserved every single word.

I stand by statements regarding that board. I had found it two years ago - and thought "This might be a good place for me to come in the future - if I get stressed out with Jeremy being ill" - I now know that I never, ever want to go to that site to get support. I never want to associate with people who are so burnt out, bitter and angry. I would want support dealing with being a caregiver - being subjected to the attitude on that board is not ever going to be helpful.

-Michelle

Editing to add - I also stand what was said about the poster "Faithful John" - if you didn't actually read the post where he kept insisting that Emily and I were the same person (post after post, after post) - then completely getting up on his high and mighty horse... you have no right to say if he was being a jerkoff or not.