Cf and religion

WinAce

New member
Nonnie,

Why would you think that? Perhaps you harbor some unwarranted assumptions about non-believers, one you might want to reexamine. For the record, I consider myself a humanist, romantic, idealist, poet, writer and comedian. To answer a latter query, I'm also quite comfortable in my beliefs, and the reason I argue is that I can bring those into sharper focus, learn, put my thoughts in writing (which I quite enjoy), and potentially help others come to a more human-friendly outlook on life (as opposed to what I view as defeatist, anti-human attitudes which, among other things, place more emphasis on empty promises of future bliss, while encouraging putting the importance of our lives here, where it counts, on the backburner). But this topic isn't really about me, is it? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

Luke,

You may be interested in an essay I wrote, <a href="http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/critical_thinking/unfalsifiable_claims.htm">Refuting Unfalsifiable Claims</a>. You appear to be making the following two (rather questionable) assumptions:

<b>(1) Claims that <u>can't be debunked beyond all possible doubt</u> are reasonable to accept, as reasonably as disbelieving them.</b> This is, IMO, indefensible once you get down to specifics. Like the epicycles I mentioned, an infinite number of explanations--themselves unfalsifiable--can be tacked on to <i>any</i> claim, rationalizing away damaging evidence and making it effectively immune to debunking. A murderer could claim demons killed his wife, and planted fake fingerprints, for example. That couldn't technically be "proven" false; merely exceedingly improbable, given the much more likely story, which fit every bit of evidence naturally and coherently, allowed us to make independent predictions--like the location of a murder weapon--and was far more in tune with our general experience. Carl Sagan, author of <a href="http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3U6i9DJByy&isbn=0345409469&itm=1">The Demon-Haunted World</a> (perhaps the finest book on skepticism ever written), has an excellent thought experiment there--<i>The Dragon in My Garage</i>--that makes the case much stronger than I could. You can read that for free <a href="http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm">here</a>.
<b>(2) God(s) <u>can't</u> be disproven.</b> It is my position that, at least as far as <i>most gods that could have any bearing on our lives</i> are concerned, they've long been disproven beyond a reasonable doubt, using the exact same standards that you'd apply when evaluating claims of Loch Ness monster sightings or werewolf attacks. This is where the theologian would invoke an endless assortment of ad hoc rationalizations: theodicies ("great suffering and a loving God are compatible because..."); explanations for how Hell/Heaven admissions based on a person's ideology, not merirt is compatible with justice (usually denying that reasonable disbelief is even possible, an empirical claim that is, on the face of it, self-evidently false); and so on. But like epicycles, these are unverifiable--and usually transparently silly--attempts that assume their conclusion as true from the outset, instead of conceding that <i>it need not be taken as true in the first place</i>, and could make <b>much</b> more sense that way.

I acknowledge that some people can't enjoy life without the expectation of an afterlife. Neither do I expect them to abandon their beliefs based on anything I write, so it's all good. Those that <i>don't</i> absolutely need that reassurance are, IMO, far more likely to be well-adjusted, strong and humanistic people in general, so if one of them revises their views based on anything I wrote, that's all good, too. And finally, whether it's a comforting thought or not--which is quite debatable in itself, given how many people in the common religions are destined for everlasting torment because of crimes like being born in the wrong religious tradition--<b>if</b> it's true, if it's true, so we might as well accept that, live with it as best we can, and not waste time on wild goose chases (or, for that matter, waste time on the much worse, frivolous Jerks for Jesus behavior like the current gay-hating, atheist-marginalizing bozos in Congress do, or like Muslim theocrats are loathe to do). We accept that cancer kills, for example, and don't bother staging elaborate ceremonies to trick people into thinking someone who died from it is retiring to Cuba, as much as it might be more comforting to believe the latter.

--Allan
 

anonymous

New member
Dear Valentines Bunny !

My name is Kamran and I live in coastal city of Pakistan called Karachi. I have two sons (Hamdan 11 and Zayan 07) and a small little daughter (1 year old) Aisha, who is a CF patient by birth. You know she is the first born female with CF and the first girl after three generations in our family , Alhamdolillah.

Reading your mail in the forum encouraged me to write to you and see how we can both help eachother. I'm strong practicing Muslim and beleive in Allah (st). We are creation of Allah and Allah feeds us. Then one day everyone has to die and Allah(st) will again create us and then day of judgement would start and whoever in this world has done one good deed would be brought in front of us and Allah (st) will reward us for those deeds, similarly any misdeeds and we will have to bear the punishment, now remember , be it reward or punishment , it would be for the rest of the life , be it in Heaven or Hell.

Everyone in this world hopes for the best to come , i.e . the best house , the best dresses, the best car and e.t.c. e.t.c. therefore we should also hope for the best destiny and that is Heaven , offcourse. To earn Heaven for the life after death is to obey Allah's laws , the laws described in Holy Quran and teachings of Prophet Mhammad (Peace be upon Him).

I think you should stop feeling miserable and start thinking positively. let yourself loose, talk to your mother and be gentle when you are talking to her cause mothers are gateways to Heaven. You are young and who knows how long or short yourt life is therefore stop worrying about dyeing young. I never think the way for my 1 year daughter who is a CF, cause I strongly believe that life and death is in Allah's hands, therefore me & my wife never complains to Allah but thank Allah for awarding us with beautiful kids. My e-mail is lulu@cyber.net.pk you can write few words and we can pick up from there.

Allah Hafiz
Kamran
 

Mockingbird

New member
Respectful question: You kept putting (st) after Allah; why is that? Also, my knowledge of muslim is a little limited; would you mind if I e-mailed you as well? You know, just for info. I'm always looking to expand my understandings of things. =-)

Jarod
22 w/cf
 

anonymous

New member
Ace,
Obviously you do harbor some as you put it "unwarranted assumptions" about Christians and their peace.
What's happened in your life, man, to make you so bitter about the whole God issue? (i.e. having this disease, a past experience, etc.) Answer truthfully, because I think there is an underlying issue at play here.
Nonnie
 

anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Mockingbird</b></i><br>I think everyone could learn that, not just christians.<hr></blockquote>




I think it's a bigger issue with some Christians - are not born-again Christians strongly encouraged to convert non-believers to their beliefs?
 

Mockingbird

New member
Almost every religion does that. Don't go making generalities and dumping everything on christianity, all right? I don't deserve that, and neither do a lot of other christians.
 

WinAce

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>Ace,

Obviously you do harbor some as you put it "unwarranted assumptions" about Christians and their peace.<hr></blockquote>

In which case, I'll appreciate your pointing them out (as I've reevaluated several that I've noticed). I <i>won't</i> however, appreciate patronizing speculation about "what must have happened" to make me conclude religion is a joke, any more than a theist would appreciate speculation about which childhood incident "left them permanently in need of a security blanket," or whatever's the popular retort nowadays. But anyway, I'm off to North Carolina. If you have anything more substantial to add, I'll enjoy reading it once I have Internet access again. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">
 

anonymous

New member
So is your answer "Yes, something happened and/or I've had a negitive experience regarding God and/or religion and I made a decision that I just don't believe"

Or "No, nothing whatsoever has ever happened and you're way off base pal"

Thanks for the straight answer<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif" border="0">
 

anonymous

New member
Winace,
I don't know why you bother. No matter how you put it or what kind of logic and reasoning you use they will find away to defend there beliefs. It is in my opinion more of a brain washing technique than anything else, they have been told all of there lives and they cannot give up the hopes of an after life, it is to hard for them. I often wonder if there were no promise of an after life if they would still be so inslaved to God, or if it wouldn't really matter to them anymore. The proudest day of my life is the day I opened my eyes and climbed out of the box. Its beautiful to see life without religion. There was a time when I was brain washed too, and I felt sorry for people like you and me. This is not something you can just inform someone of and expect them to convert. I never even speak of it. I keep my opinions to myself in my personal life and only express my true belief's when I find someone who shares the same "open mind" that I do. Christians get very upset when they are confronted with the idea of no after life, and no miracles and they normally think we are devils trying to challenge them or something bizarre like that, I think that is why people keep hammering away trying to find out what awful thing happened to you, but I know the truth is, you just set yourself free. My biggest pet pieve is the old christian saying, "God never gives you more than you can handle" I mean who in the world does this apply to? Is it only Christians? And if this is true why would a Christian comit suicide? And if God is the one giving us the awful things to deal with, why would a God do something so hidious and why would someone accept it graciously? I do not believe for one milisecond that my son has CF because God gave it to him. That is ridiculous and I believe in the scientific facts of the matter. Another one that erks me is the "power of prayer" Okay so I'm to believe that if I pray long and hard enough my son could be cured of this disease, right? And I guess the reason why so many others aren't cured of disease is because they don't pray enough. How nasty is that? If you don't beg me enough I will not answer your prayer. Well, I could go on and on but I'll stop here. I enjoy reading your posts on this subject they are exactly how I feel. But, for the record I do not disbelieve in God I just don't have any evidence to prove it so I don't pretend to know something based on nothing. I just live a happy life. And dispite what many Christians think, No I do not need an imaginary Idol to make me happy. I do live a happy life, with a happy family. We have what we need because we work for it. Nothing bad ever happened to me to make me feel the way I do, and I felt this way long before my son was diagnosed with CF.
Jennifer
 

anonymous

New member
Jennifer,
Your comment about christians been brain washed really offended me.
I have the choice what to beleive in as do we all, and i CHOOSE to believe in God. You have the right to not believe, its your choice and I respect that and I would like it if you were to respect me and my beliefs (and others for that matter!)
The way you talk to winace about christians is so patronising...'downing' christians like that...have a bit of respect. I hope for your son's sake that you don;t teach him its ok not to respect others beliefs, religious or otherwise,
Rose
 

anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>Originally posted by: <b>Anonymous</b></i><br>Jennifer,

Your comment about christians been brain washed really offended me.

I have the choice what to beleive in as do we all, and i CHOOSE to believe in God. You have the right to not believe, its your choice and I respect that and I would like it if you were to respect me and my beliefs (and others for that matter!)

The way you talk to winace about christians is so patronising...'downing' christians like that...have a bit of respect. I hope for your son's sake that you don;t teach him its ok not to respect others beliefs, religious or otherwise,

Rose<hr></blockquote>

Rose-
I am sorry you were offended. But that IS my opinion.
Most Christians were never given a "choice" they were brought up being "preached to" about religion and the threat of HELL if you don't cooperate. That to me is a form of brain washing. You see it how you want and I can too. I have been in your shoes and I do not think this is about respect. You may ask me to respect you for a lot of things but you may not ask me to respect you simply based on you religious convictions and I will not ask you to respect me for my lack there of. Okay. If hearing opinions on religious matters bothers you then maybe you should avoid the topics, just a suggestion. I am not offended by your religous beliefs and I don't mind listening to others express there beliefs. I am not attacking anyone. This is just an opinion thread, nothing more.
And DO NOT bring my children into this. The way I raise my children is of no concern to you and you have no right to make recommendations for my family unless I ask you to. So, for this I will ask your respect and that you mind your business.
Jennifer
 

anonymous

New member
<blockquote>Quote<br><hr><i>





Rose-

I am sorry you were offended. But that IS my opinion.

Most Christians were never given a "choice" they were brought up being "preached to" about religion and the threat of HELL if you don't cooperate. That to me is a form of brain washing. You see it how you want and I can too. I have been in your shoes and I do not think this is about respect. You may ask me to respect you for a lot of things but you may not ask me to respect you simply based on you religious convictions and I will not ask you to respect me for my lack there of. Okay. If hearing opinions on religious matters bothers you then maybe you should avoid the topics, just a suggestion. I am not offended by your religous beliefs and I don't mind listening to others express there beliefs. I am not attacking anyone. This is just an opinion thread, nothing more.

And DO NOT bring my children into this. The way I raise my children is of no concern to you and you have no right to make recommendations for my family unless I ask you to. So, for this I will ask your respect and that you mind your business.

Jennifer<hr></blockquote>
Jennifer-
Thanks for the apology and um...I wasn't making any recommendations on how you raise your kids, but thats fine if you want them left out of this. But I would like for you to respect my religious beliefs, whether you think you need to/want to or not. It may not mean like much to you but it does to me, just like I shall respect your wish for me not to mention your son.
And its not the discussion of religion per say that bothers me, its the lack of respect that you had for others believing in one. You belittled and tarred all Christians with the one brush. There are plenty of people on here who do not believe and I don't call them stupid or anything, and they don't call me stupid or brainwashed or anything.
Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean Im going to go up to a muslim and say, 'hey muslim, are you stupid or something, you must be crazy and brainwashed if you believe in that' No I don't, its a little thing I have been brought up with called, RESPECT.
And I do respect your lack of belief just so you know, Rose
 

anonymous

New member
Okay, so basically you want me to respect your beliefs right?
Then I will ask that you respect mine. My BELIEF is that CHRISTIANS ARE BRAINWASHED so respect it.
Jennifer
 

anonymous

New member
I never said you called me stupid, just that you belittled Christians and tarred them all with the one brush. Which you did again with your latest generalistion...but like I said, thank you for your apology, I accept it..and I hope that you learn some day how to respect other people, other cultures, other religions and realise that this world is made up of people from all different backrounds and most of all that you learn some respect. But I don't really feel like wasting my breath any longer telling a grown woman some basic morals...Rose
 

anonymous

New member
Just like I said, this is not about respect, it is about OPINIONS. If you can't handle opinions don't go on a forum because they are full of opinions. You don't know me, so stop talking to me like you do. I don't know why you feel you deserve so much respect for just having a religious belief. Get over it!
Jennifer
 
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